[reh321]

i have a hard time imagining the features of a camera above the k70 and less than the k3iii. There was kp and it was a good route, but it doesn't seem to have been very successful, I don't know what more would be appreciated that kp didn't have. The k70 is still very modern, adjustable monitor, wi-fi, light, good sensor, pixel shift, 4K time lapse, multi-exposure. In short, what do you want to add to justify almost double the price but less than a k3III? I don't know..

It's being fairly heavily discounted in my region. I expect it is the last of its kind in Pentax land, if for no other reason than prices of everything seem to be rising a lot.
Will we see more entry level? Probably. I do think the price of admission us going to be quite a but more than what is being bandied about here by the unicorn hunters.

Your imagination is lacking.

For example, they could add the focus, processor and software developed for the K-3iii; keep the K-70’s prism and the K-70’s build, and you would have a camera much less expensive than the K-3iii, but it would still be a very good introduction of what Pentax has to offer, and definitely worth the price, even if it completely worked correctly for just a couple of years {and the actual ‘usable’ lifetime could be much longer these days}. They wouldn’t need items such as a metal chassis to show that MILC is not ‘the only way to go’.

---

Last edited by reh321; 02-23-2022 at 12:56 PM. Reason: make clear that reply is to last two posts

[Serkevan]

It's being fairly heavily discounted in my region. I expect it is the last of its kind in Pentax land, if for no other reason than prices of everything seem to be rising a lot.
Will we see more entry level? Probably. I do think the price of admission us going to be quite a but more than what is being bandied about here by the unicorn hunters.

I disagree. It really wouldn't cost much to make a literal K-70, simply with a better AF (say, KP-level hardware with better algorithms), software from the K-3iii (GPS-less astrotracer when that comes, new menus, etc.) and, possibly, a touchscreen. No need for fast frame rate, no need for even the 26 MP sensor if it's cheaper to stay on one of the 24 ones. Good to go for around 5 years more on a (relatively) shoestring R&D budget, while production cost stays roughly the same as it is right now.

Almost every other brand is making entry level full frame for not much more than that amount of money.

[H. Sapiens]

i have a hard time imagining the features of a camera above the k70 and less than the k3iii. There was kp and it was a good route, but it doesn't seem to have been very successful, I don't know what more would be appreciated that kp didn't have. The k70 is still very modern, adjustable monitor, wi-fi, light, good sensor, pixel shift, 4K time lapse, multi-exposure. In short, what do you want to add to justify almost double the price but less than a k3III? I don't know..

I'm not really known as a business savvy person, but I also think the K70 will be the last of its kind. Like Wheatfield I cannot see them making any money on a K70 update. It will be destined to compete hard on price vs features. If they leave the aps c with only one body, then I'm afraid I'm out, though, and I suspect I'm not alone. That's a genuine dilemma.


When I last looked at cameras (and bought one) I was in Tokyo and therefore I was able to try every bloody model. The one that didn't appeal to me was the k70 and that was because of how it felt in my hands - the one aspect you'll never capture in a spec sheet.


On basis of what I gathered from the sales guys there, I'm not sure KP was such a failure. Remember it was quite a lot more expensive and I suspect each sold unit have brought Pentax a higher profit than k70 or K3ii. I chose the K3ii and that was largely bc of value for yen - The KP was more expensive while having less features and feeling less solid. To me the KP was poorly positioned - the K3ii still available at a much lower price, while being more powerful on all but one point, the KP had the better sensor.


Now, an updated KP would complement the K3iii in Pentax' product portfolio better than the K70 - with an update of the latter it will compete hard on price with pretty much the same features except build. The KP is a bit more street minded. So ... I would make an KP II - 1200 dollars, updates to AF, video and a few added features. A smaller, lighter camera with a different "look and feel".

[nicolpa47]

The discussion of what might make a viable replacement entry level camera is of interest. Personally, I think a lower cost entry to the Pentax system than the K1 ii/K3 iii will be needed into the future. The K70 may be updated or replaced, however, one thing that I feel Pentax must do is to finally and completely nail the ABF issue. This could be by modification of the K70 aperture control solenoid but that may leave room for doubt in critical minds. Replacement with the system in the more expensive cameras presumably would have a cost implication, but would finally remove the issue as a reason for not buying a Pentax camera.

Colin

[Wheatfield]

Your imagination is lacking.

For example, they could add the focus, processor and software developed for the K-3iii; keep the K-70’s prism and the K-70’s build, and you would have a camera much less expensive than the K-3iii, but it would still be a very good introduction of what Pentax has to offer, and definitely worth the price, even if it completely worked correctly for just a couple of years {and the actual ‘usable’ lifetime could be much longer these days}. They wouldn’t need items such as a metal chassis to show that MILC is not ‘the only way to go’.

And how many hundred thousand would they sell to recoup even that minimal investment?

---------- Post added Feb 23rd, 2022 at 03:28 PM ----------

I disagree. It really wouldn't cost much to make a literal K-70, simply with a better AF (say, KP-level hardware with better algorithms), software from the K-3iii (GPS-less astrotracer when that comes, new menus, etc.) and, possibly, a touchscreen. No need for fast frame rate, no need for even the 26 MP sensor if it's cheaper to stay on one of the 24 ones. Good to go for around 5 years more on a (relatively) shoestring R&D budget, while production cost stays roughly the same as it is right now.

Almost every other brand is making entry level full frame for not much more than that amount of money.

And an APS entry level from a relatively unknown company is going to sell how many units when for a few dollars more the customer can get full frame from a well known company?

[reh321]

And how many hundred thousand would they sell to recoup even that minimal investment?

---------- Post added Feb 23rd, 2022 at 03:28 PM ----------



And an APS entry level from a relatively unknown company is going to sell how many units when for a few dollars more the customer can get full frame from a well known company?

Then Ricoh should just give up if they aren’t going to even try - that frame of mind has them spending their money only on the cameras and lenses that you personally want. Every business step is a gamble. We have no guarantee that any step will succeed, but business consists of taking those that may pay off, and my guess is that this one would.

To answer your question directly, I would guess that @ $1000, selling a few hundred would pay for any additional investment beyond what they have already invested in the K-70 and the K-3iii. They added amount would pay for the added parts and the added ‘integration’ into the K-70 design.

[beholder3]

I assume whatever „cheap, entry level“ means technologywise will be priced at 1400-1600 EUR, which is massively cheaper than the k3-III.

Remember we see 5-7% inflation and the cameras need to stay on the market for multiple years with rising material costs.

Go expect follow up models to increase 20-25% in price.

Ultra cheap €1000 cameras are fantasy for smaller makers. Go look elsewhere if that is what you want.

[nonpigliounoshoot]

The discussion of what might make a viable replacement entry level camera is of interest. Personally, I think a lower cost entry to the Pentax system than the K1 ii/K3 iii will be needed into the future. The K70 may be updated or replaced, however, one thing that I feel Pentax must do is to finally and completely nail the ABF issue. This could be by modification of the K70 aperture control solenoid but that may leave room for doubt in critical minds. Replacement with the system in the more expensive cameras presumably would have a cost implication, but would finally remove the issue as a reason for not buying a Pentax camera.

Colin

I have never read on the forums in Italy of a single person who has had the solenoid problem on k70 Many cases complained here are not even 100% verified. yet they hurt the reputation of a fully functional and one of Pentax's most successful camera. On the other hand, there are many on k50 and k30. and many have left their mark for it and I understand them.
but I did not consider it a serious problem with respect to the cost of purchase and repair. I do not think it is possible that an AF like that of the k3III is inserted on an entry level model, I would be happy otherwise, but I doubt it would be good for the sales of the K3III

---------- Post added 02-23-22 at 03:12 PM ----------

L'ultima volta che ho guardato le macchine fotografiche (e ne ho comprata una) ero a Tokyo e quindi ho potuto provare ogni dannato modello. Quello che non mi piaceva era il k70 ed era per come mi sentivo nelle mani - l'unico aspetto che non catturerai mai in una scheda tecnica.

I got the same impression when I first got it, and in fact I didn't buy it. Then I decided that I wanted to modernize my k30 (it didn't have the problem of dark photos yet) and with 500 euros and a 4 year warranty I got it. It took me a week to get used to the smaller size, but then everything normal. Maybe sometimes being lighter helps, and the data sheet is appreciated even better.

[The Squirrel Mafia]

The K70 may be updated or replaced, however, one thing that I feel Pentax must do is to finally and completely nail the ABF issue. This could be by modification of the K70 aperture control solenoid but that may leave room for doubt in critical minds. Replacement with the system in the more expensive cameras presumably would have a cost implication, but would finally remove the issue as a reason for not buying a Pentax camera.

Indeed! They really need to resolve the solenoid issue. I repaired both of my K-50 bodies with "white" solenoids. It's kind of ridiculous that they're still using the semi-faulty "green" solenoid mechanism today. Yeah. Seems like failures in the K-70 have been less than the failures in the K-30/50/500 & K-S1/S2, but the issue is still potentially there, hence me never buying a lower model Pentax ever again, until they change that with something else.

[Serkevan]

And how many hundred thousand would they sell to recoup even that minimal investment?

---------- Post added Feb 23rd, 2022 at 03:28 PM ----------



And an APS entry level from a relatively unknown company is going to sell how many units when for a few dollars more the customer can get full frame from a well known company?

A handy number more than a 2000€ APS from a relatively unknown company, when the customer can get more fps and full frame from a well known company, I'd reckon.

That didn't stop Ricoh from making the K-3iii - and I'm glad it didn't.

Do you know *why* the last three people I know bought Nikon and Sony APS-C cameras *despite* me vigorously insisting against it? Because they actually had gear around 700€. The overwhelming majority of people dip their toes into a hobby first, financially speaking. Having your entriest-level at 2500€+ for a basic 2-lens kit is the equivalent of installing a BASE jump point in a kid's pool.

[tibbitts]

Maybe a K-5ii with the only change being KAF4 compatibility and some updated firmware would make a good, cheap-to-build entry level model. The naming would make sense : 1ii, 3iii, 5iii.

[Wheatfield]

Then Ricoh should just give up if they aren’t going to even try - that frame of mind has them spending their money only on the cameras and lenses that you personally want. Every business step is a gamble. We have no guarantee that any step will succeed, but business consists of taking those that may pay off, and my guess is that this one would.

To answer your question directly, I would guess that @ $1000, selling a few hundred would pay for any additional investment beyond what they have already invested in the K-70 and the K-3iii. They added amount would pay for the added parts and the added ‘integration’ into the K-70 design.

Don't make it personal, that isn't acceptable.
This isn't about what I want, no matter how you want to twist it.
This is about what I think Pentax will be able to sell.
I don't think they will sell enough low margin cameras to make back the ROI, no matter how much of a pittance people want to pretend it will be.
The entry level is a shell of what it once was. That isn't going to change no matter how much wishful thinking is wasted on the subject.
What little entry level there is left is being bombarded with MILC propaganda, and not knowing better, the entry level buyer is going to buy what he is told to buy.
Optical viewfinder experience is just words on paper unless the EVF gives you migraines.

[reh321]

Don't make it personal, that isn't acceptable.
This isn't about what I want, no matter how you want to twist it.
This is about what I think Pentax will be able to sell.
I don't think they will sell enough low margin cameras to make back the ROI, no matter how much of a pittance people want to pretend it will be.
The entry level is a shell of what it once was. That isn't going to change no matter how much wishful thinking is wasted on the subject.
What little entry level there is left is being bombarded with MILC propaganda, and not knowing better, the entry level buyer is going to buy what he is told to buy.
Optical viewfinder experience is just words on paper unless the EVF gives you migraines.

Your words are "just words on paper".
I still remember when {in 1979} I switched from a rangefinder camera to a Pentax "ME/SE" - how much larger and brighter the viewfinder was!!
Even if the Internet had existed back then, I could have never adequately described it.
Of course, the difference between EVF and OVF will be different, but it is something that must be experienced to be understood.
If that is going to be Pentax's main selling point, they must keep it in front of people, and the way to do that is to have a camera at a low-enough selling point for people to actually purchase it even if they don't understand it before they take a "step of faith' to purchase a K-70. But the K-70 is getting "long in the tooth", so it must be refreshed and re-released at an acceptably low price.

[JPT]

Don't make it personal, that isn't acceptable.
This isn't about what I want, no matter how you want to twist it.
This is about what I think Pentax will be able to sell.
I don't think they will sell enough low margin cameras to make back the ROI, no matter how much of a pittance people want to pretend it will be.
The entry level is a shell of what it once was. That isn't going to change no matter how much wishful thinking is wasted on the subject.
What little entry level there is left is being bombarded with MILC propaganda, and not knowing better, the entry level buyer is going to buy what he is told to buy.
Optical viewfinder experience is just words on paper unless the EVF gives you migraines.

So what are you referring to as "entry level"? Is it anything below the K-3 III? For most of us, we see a big difference between a camera that sells for $500-$800 (e.g. the K-70) and a mid-level camera that sells for $1,000-$1,300 (KP).

What you described above is a stereotypical entry level buyer, who just buys what they are told to, swallowing marketing propaganda as-is. There are a lot of people on this forum who buy cheaper cameras but are not like that at all. Not all people sending less than $2,000 are uneducated. They might just be aware that a modest camera is enough for their photographic needs.

You mention about what kind of profit margin is required for cheaper cameras, but in fact we have no evidence to say which Pentax line is more profitable. It's just assumption. We do know that the GR is their top product and that is right at the $1,000 point.

The last point about this is that Pentax has a plan to improve their margin, at least in Japan. They are going to sell online and direct as much as possible. If they are successful, it could have a big impact on their profitability. Who knows? They might even starting making a profit on those expensive to develop FF lenses.

[Photos-by-Chas]

As I have been somewhat watching this thread for some time, I have seen very few, probably less than a dozen claims of the solenoid block in the K-70. Also it seems apparent that the K-70 is selling well. It was released a year before the KP, which has been pulled from production, and the K-70 continues. I read somewhere that the aperture block has not occurred for any K-70 produced since 2019 or 2020. Perhaps Ricoh/Pentax has changed to the "white solenoid" and eliminated the "problem".