[devouges]

I give my vote to the moderators Great job so far.

[Kobayashi.K]

I'll predict that this type of micro management as proposed by Adam will not work. It is more of the same, it costs too many resources and too much time. Look at the can of worms represented by the reactions on this post to get an idea.

What is needed on PentaxForums is an AI system which monitors all posts, analyses the contents, and collects a subset which can be analyzed by the mods and further reduced to compile a list with offenders which are given a warning.

An AI system will not work perfectly from the beginning but it is a good investment, because but it can learn over time and become better and better. The mods are still present as the human factor, and they keep an eye on the performance of the AI system.

It would be wise not to take advise or use software from Google and the like, because that would inevitably lead to privacy issues. My take is that Microsoft would be a good partner, because they have all kinds of services scalable to small and large businesses.

Learn how Microsoft AI is helping your industry
Artificial Intelligence in Business - Microsoft AI

[csa]

From strictly juristic POV you're right, of course. But what would remain of the "FORUMS" if people would not come and fill it with the content? Just an empty case. If salami tactics is applied and internet freedom cut slice after slice, what will be left over?

Again, this is a private site; you and I and every member agreed to the terms when joining. "Salami" tactics do not apply, nor does "internet freedom"; rather Moderators keep the posts and threads within the terms of service. If any member is unhappy with this, they are welcome to start their own site and let free rein prevail.

People do come & fill the site with content; and 98% do it within the Terms of Service, so there's no problem. The 2% decide that rules do not apply to them, and try to disrupt the threads, by being disrespectful, and worse.

I'm glad this site is family friendly, & will stay that way.

[csa]

I'll predict that this type of micro management as proposed by Adam will not work. It is more of the same, it costs too many resources and too much time. Look at the can of worms represented by the reactions on this post to get an idea.

What is needed on PentaxForums is an AI system which monitors all posts, analyses the contents, and collects a subset which can be analyzed by the mods and further reduced to compile a list with offenders which are given a warning.

An AI system will not work perfectly from the beginning but it is a good investment, because but it can learn over time and become better and better. The mods are still present as the human factor, and they keep an eye on the performance of the AI system.

It would be wise not to take advise or use software from Google and the like, because that would inevitably lead to privacy issues. My take is that Microsoft would be a good partner, because they have all kinds of services scalable to small and large businesses.

Learn how Microsoft AI is helping your industry
Artificial Intelligence in Business - Microsoft AI

I disagree about the micro managing. This is simply an alert to make the site more pleasant for all to use. Going to that MS system; wonder what the cost is? Also, it would appear it takes a lot of the human factor out of the moderating. Having everything like this automated, I feel this site would lose it's "family" feeling. But that's just me.

[zzeitg]

If any member is unhappy with this, they are welcome to start their own site and let free rein prevail.

Seriously?

I'm glad this site is family friendly, & will stay that way.

Seconded. But: will the forum become a better place if there are more rules, restrictions, bans, censorship, forbiddance? I have doubts. Liberty should not be abandoned even on the privat forums (oxymoron, isn't it?)). (Why to endamage a good thing just because of couple of guys who have no manners?)

[gatorguy]

Seriously?



Seconded. But: will the forum become a better place if there are more rules, restrictions, bans, censorship, forbiddance? I have doubts. Liberty should not be abandoned even on the privat forums (oxymoron, isn't it?)). (Why to endamage a good thing just because of couple of guys who have no manners?)

Done properly, minimally, and with discretion? Absolutely.

[Wheatfield]

From strictly juristic POV you're right, of course. But what would remain of the "FORUMS" if people would not come and fill it with the content? Just an empty case. If salami tactics is applied and internet freedom cut slice after slice, what will be left over?

What I've found is that while my content is appreciated, but my sometimes rude and troll like behavior isn't.
Think of a forum as a shopping mall. Visitors are welcome, but if you stand in the middle of an aisle and start cursing loudly at people, you will probably be banished.

[zzeitg]

Done properly, minimally, and with discretion? Absolutely.

Can not agree with that. Any prohibition can't ever make the world better, just worse. There's not such a direct proportion (the more prohibition - the better world).

That being said, everybody should act reasonably - exactly to prevent unnecessary more restrictive rules.

[BigMackCam]

I'll predict that this type of micro management as proposed by Adam will not work. It is more of the same, it costs too many resources and too much time. Look at the can of worms represented by the reactions on this post to get an idea.

What is needed on PentaxForums is an AI system which monitors all posts, analyses the contents, and collects a subset which can be analyzed by the mods and further reduced to compile a list with offenders which are given a warning.

An AI system will not work perfectly from the beginning but it is a good investment, because but it can learn over time and become better and better. The mods are still present as the human factor, and they keep an eye on the performance of the AI system.

It would be wise not to take advise or use software from Google and the like, because that would inevitably lead to privacy issues. My take is that Microsoft would be a good partner, because they have all kinds of services scalable to small and large businesses.

Learn how Microsoft AI is helping your industry
Artificial Intelligence in Business - Microsoft AI

What Adam has presented is actually no more micro-management than the processes and procedures we've had in place for years. It's just a slightly different focus, approach and application based on exactly the same rules; an adjustment to what's already covered by the team. But whatever new or modified measures are put in place, they can only go so far... The real power for change lies with us, the members. If all of us review the forum rules, follow them to the letter, check ourselves before posting emotionally rather than logically, and gracefully accept moderating action when it is taken, the moderators' jobs will be relatively easy - and the positive effect on the forums will be significant and lasting.

The forum rules had become bloated and tiresome to read, but for quite some time now they've been streamlined and simplified. It takes only a couple of minutes to read and digest them, and the most important one of all is the very first:

"Although debates and discussions are allowed, we would like to maintain a friendly forum and do not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or inflammatory posts."

If that was the only rule our members memorised and followed unfailingly, it would make a huge difference... Of course, the other rules are important too, in their own ways - but this is the BIG one; arguably, the most crucial by far

[gatorguy]

Can not agree with that. Any prohibition can't ever make the world better, just worse. There's not such a direct proportion (the more prohibition - the better world).

That being said, everybody should act reasonably - exactly to prevent unnecessary more restrictive rules.

Lord of the flies....
I'll assume you've both read and understood it.

In a perfect world with perfect understanding and perfect compassion we might not need rules nor direction. We would all act as reponsible adults who might not always agree but can be 100%civil when voicing differences. . .
But we don't have that perfect world, not even a perfect forum. Sometimes we all benefit from reminders.

The administration/ownership of the forum had already established rules before you amd I got here, which you, me, and every other member agreed to as a condition of being accepted to post here. The moderators are tasked with now enforcing the minimal rules-set so that the majority can enjoy the camaraderie and opportunities for learning and sharing without the smallest minority, sometimes just a single poster, deciding they don't like rules after being permitted to join and who choose to then ignore they exist, or worse insult others who may not have the same imagined skill sets.

Left to their own devices, and showing enough disrespect for other persons, they can end up running the asylum so to speak and discouraging the rest of us from taking part in respectful and civil discourse. I've watched forums be destroyed by a very vocal and selfish minority who attempt to shout down the more meek and respectful who may have wonderful views and stories to share if permitted and encouraged.

A private forum is not a democracy, and freedom of speech may be encouraged but not at the expense of putting up obstacles to polite discussions. It's here to serve a specific audience who have shared interests. Everyone is welcome, but no one should have permission to personally insult others or their talents because of a difference of opinion.

*Soapbox moved off-stage*

[RobA_Oz]

What I've found is that while my content is appreciated, but my sometimes rude and troll like behavior isn't.
Think of a forum as a shopping mall. Visitors are welcome, but if you stand in the middle of an aisle and start cursing loudly at people, you will probably be banished.

Every family has its black sheep or embarrassing uncle. Not every family member has the skill or patience to navigate around even the occasional awkward moment.

Personality disorders are quite another thing. Not that I’m saying that about anyone here.

[Des]

Liberty should not be abandoned even on the privat forums (oxymoron, isn't it?))

Every community and every institution in the world needs rules to function. We have a set of rules that are designed to provide a welcoming and friendly environment for people from all over the world who share a love of photography. The success of this forum in growing and in achieving its aims shows that overall the rules - and the tweaks to them along the way - have worked well.

Incidentally, "private forum" is not an oxymoron. Just because a private body has many members, and membership is open to anyone, does not change its character. Nor does the fact that the written contributions of members are displayed to the world. Members agree to a set of rules as a condition of membership. Membership can be terminated for breach of the rules.

The PF web site is, in essence, the sum of the written contributions of PF members and staff. In some countries, the publisher of a web site is legally responsible for contributions published on that site (regardless of where the site is hosted or where the contribution is made from). The operator of a private forum has at least a moral responsibility, if not a legal one, to prevent it being used for illegal or improper purposes. That is why there are rules designed to prevent, for example, bullying, harassment, sexual or racial abuse or the publication of nudity or sexually explicit material to minors. Such things are unlawful in many countries.

will the forum become a better place if there are more rules, restrictions, bans, censorship, forbiddance?

The point is that the forum will become a better place if the core principles embedded in the existing rules are observed and if the rules are applied more effectively to that end. The aim is to preserve and foster the distinctive culture here which has been built up over time through the contributions of thousand of people. (Including, I might add, yourself zzeitg - I mean, an average of three likes per post shows how much your contributions are valued.)

[Lord Lucan]

My take is that Microsoft would be a good partner, because they have all kinds of services scalable to small and large businesses.

If Microsoft are involved in vetting our posts, I'm leaving. Or Google, Farcebook, Twitter, and Discus for that matter.

[gatorguy]

What I've found is that while my content is appreciated, but my sometimes rude and troll like behavior isn't.
Think of a forum as a shopping mall. Visitors are welcome, but if you stand in the middle of an aisle and start cursing loudly at people, you will probably be banished.

My personal attitude is if you have to be rude and disrespectful to others in order to argue your point perhaps your point isn't as perfectly developed as you might imagine it to be. There are no excuses for personally insulting others over their opinion. If another member is getting under your skin report it to the moderation team instead of replying in kind. Tit for Tat rarely ends well.

In the course of your mission of "protecting the brand" you yourself may inadvertently be harming it if you discourage others from chiming in on Pentax fan discussions and sending them on a search for a "friendlier venue".

Lively exchange is good and advice for improving our chosen platform and our skills should be welcome. Rude and dismissive is not.

[zzeitg]

I'll assume you've both read and understood it.

Sure. Still I'd appeal more to everyone's accountability, wisdom and common sense.

The aim is to preserve and foster the distinctive culture here

I fully understand the aim, Des, and share the longing for a polite and reasonable discussion. I'm just not convinced that more restrictive rules or higher activity of the moderators (however I appreciate their work) might reach that goal. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.