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07-05-2020, 10:55 PM - 6 Likes   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
I have frequently looked for a thumbs down to remember it is not there. Of course, this is a blunt instrument but it might help to alert tone deaf posters that they may have crossed a line.
Hey Mike, speaking as a member, and not as a moderator, I feel a thumbs down button might cause more disruption than might otherwise occur without one.
" Likes " are traceable to the member that gave it, and they also reward the recipient for being positive.................usually. Likes for negative posts are rare.
If " Dislikes " are also traceable to the giver, it becomes personal. I foresee much tit-for-tatting with regards to a dislike button.
Also, some members might not mind racking up 10 Dislikes for a post..............................just sayin'............

07-05-2020, 11:21 PM - 6 Likes   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by nzondlo Quote
If we can't voice our concerns with the brand here, on the brand's forums, them where is that discourse allowed to take place?
I think this is based on a misunderstanding of Adam's post Nathan. The context Adam explains is "a steady rise in negative sentiment toward the Pentax brand throughout the community, which in some cases has led to unpleasant confrontations in forum threads and difficult decisions by the moderators." The passage from the moderation team which Adam quotes says, "New members with critical views of the brand have a responsibility to understand the dynamics of the community they're participating in and consider the effect of their posts, ... Even so, all of our members - new and old - have a responsibility to respect each other's opinions (even when we disagree), remain courteous and friendly at all times, keep an open mind, and avoid jumping to conclusions, making personal comments or name-calling".

There is no "party line". Well-informed reasoned criticism of a Pentax product, supported by evidence, is fine (provided it is on-topic). Unfortunately all too often criticisms are not well-reasoned or well-informed or supported by evidence, and slanging matches often result. They are unedifying and generate more heat than light. They put people off and undermine the culture of the forum.

Same goes for the "Pentax should do X" or "Pentax is doomed" comments. Or "I'm switching systems - see you later suckers". Too often they are just hot air. We are entitled to expect better than that. It can be done: for example, I have read some very intelligent and informative posts about why someone has found that another combination of gear meets their specific needs better. It just requires courtesy, humility and intelligence.

Last edited by Des; 07-05-2020 at 11:31 PM.
07-06-2020, 01:15 AM - 2 Likes   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by pjv Quote
I feel a thumbs down button might cause more disruption than might otherwise occur without one
I agree. It could too easily be abused. It is hard to have a "one size fits all" response but I think that, in general, the things we don't like are best ignored. Responding in any way rewards the negative behaviour. Anything that is completely out of line will be handled by the moderators anyway.
07-06-2020, 01:22 AM - 1 Like   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by PJ1 Quote
I agree. It could too easily be abused. It is hard to have a "one size fits all" response but I think that, in general, the things we don't like are best ignored. Responding in any way rewards the negative behaviour. Anything that is completely out of line will be handled by the moderators anyway.
Reddit.com, the 19th most visited website in the world (7th US) would beg to differ. Their entire website is based around content first being self-moderated by their users via the upvote AND downvote buttons. Moderators step in when someone breaks website or subreddit rules. It works.



07-06-2020, 01:33 AM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
If one is arguing against moderation, then one is arguing for the right to be disagreeable or offensive.
It’s pretty binary.

Again a statement which is not legit. As mentioned already couple of times, I don't believe rampant amount of rules, restrictions and moderation could make anything better. The trolls will keep trolling on, while we all might suffer from increased level of moderation "paranoia". From my point of view the forum might simply become less free-thinking and open, which is too high price for getting rid of handful of trolls.
07-06-2020, 01:33 AM - 1 Like   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by nzondlo Quote
Reddit.com, the 19th most visited website in the world (7th US) would beg to differ. Their entire website is based around content first being self-moderated by their users via the upvote AND downvote buttons. Moderators step in when someone breaks website or subreddit rules. It works.
Reddit is a terrible example because it works on hive mind mentality. Posts that are downvoted early by a few people sink to oblivion because users will be negatively charged against what they perceive to go "against the grain" and instinctively downvote them. Not only that, but Reddit's rules explicitly say that the down/upvote buttons are not dis/agree buttons. And to that, one can only say "lol".

---------- Post added 07-06-20 at 01:40 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
Again a statement which is not legit. As mentioned already couple of times, I don't believe rampant amount of rules, restrictions and moderation could make anything better. The trolls will keep trolling on, while we all might suffer from increased level of moderation "paranoia". From my point of view the forum might simply become less free-thinking and open, which is too high price for getting rid of handful of trolls.
QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
Can not agree with that. Any prohibition can't ever make the world better, just worse. There's not such a direct proportion (the more prohibition - the better world).

That being said, everybody should act reasonably - exactly to prevent unnecessary more restrictive rules.
(Emphasis mine) Unless my English is failing massively, which is entirely possible, you quite literally said that are restrictions (i.e. rules) are inherently bad.
Trolls won't keep trolling the moment they get IP bans. If they keep doing it, they will keep getting banned.

You claim that people should be civil, and I agree 100%. However, it's evident that there will be trolls (like you also said). Thus, there are two options: do something - meaning rules and their enforcement - or no -so no rules-.
You say that we will all suffer from moderation paranoia, I say that unless dealt with the trolls will drown out everyone else and push them away from the forum out of sheer annoyance, so we end up with no forum which is even worse.

Last edited by Serkevan; 07-06-2020 at 01:41 AM.
07-06-2020, 01:44 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
Again a statement which is not legit. As mentioned already couple of times, I don't believe rampant amount of rules, restrictions and moderation could make anything better. The trolls will keep trolling on, while we all might suffer from increased level of moderation "paranoia". From my point of view the forum might simply become less free-thinking and open, which is too high price for getting rid of handful of trolls.
Then you're not implying the rules are a problem but the mods making sure they're followed.

07-06-2020, 02:00 AM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote


you quite literally said that are restrictions (i.e. rules) are inherently bad.
There should be simple rules and there should be responsible people who observe them (to avoid too many restrictions added year by year). Too many rules are limiting and sometimes counter-productive. That's my opinion. (Adam said " please feel free to share your ideas in this thread" - so I did)

QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Trolls won't keep trolling the moment they get IP bans. If they keep doing it, they will keep getting banned.
Ever heard of VPN? The trolls might change IP address couple of times every hour. (But that's technical thing, we should focus more on the ethics.)

QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
You say that we will all suffer from moderation paranoia, I say that unless dealt with the trolls will drown out everyone else and push them away from the forum out of sheer annoyance, so we end up with no forum which is even worse.
I did not say exactly that we WILL, but that we MIGHT. Of course I don't know the nature of the new attitude implementation. Anyway: the forum should not become less user-friendly, because that would be a pity, wouldn't it?


QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Then you're not implying the rules are a problem but the mods making sure they're followed.

That's why there's the triangle icon with exclamation mark.
07-06-2020, 02:10 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
Ever heard of VPN? The trolls might change IP address couple of times every hour. (But that's technical thing, we should focus more on the ethics.)
I do, but from what I've seen in PF we don't really get obvious copycats, so it would be sufficient for the majority of "casual" trolls. The recalcitrant ones are far more complicated to be dealt with in a way that doesn't disrupt the rest of the users.

QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
I did not say exactly that we WILL, but that we MIGHT. Of course I don't know the nature of the new attitude implementation. Anyway: the forum should not become less user-friendly, because that would be a pity, wouldn't it?
Of course, and I also don't think that excessively heavy-handed moderation is the way to go - but there should be some ground rule enforcement, because some people are apparently incapable of grasping basic decency
07-06-2020, 02:27 AM - 6 Likes   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
Again a statement which is not legit. As mentioned already couple of times, I don't believe rampant amount of rules, restrictions and moderation could make anything better. The trolls will keep trolling on, while we all might suffer from increased level of moderation "paranoia". From my point of view the forum might simply become less free-thinking and open, which is too high price for getting rid of handful of trolls.
No, the trolls will not keep trolling on. Of this, you can be sure.
07-06-2020, 03:17 AM - 7 Likes   #146
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For anyone interested (especially given the basis of this thread), there's a great little article on "forum etiquette" here:

What to Do or Not Do When Posting on a Forum

In particular, the "What To Do on a Forum" section is very relevant. Beyond that, some of the article doesn't relate directly to our experiences and rules here, but that specific section is spot-on.

TL;DR:
- Know the basic rules of the forum
- Get to know members by reading their posts before you dive in
- Read and re-read your messages before posting them... Look for anything that might rile others or be misconstrued
- Respect other members' opinions... Agree to disagree. Don't resort to name-calling or trying to out-slander anyone else
- Don't engage in flame wars
- Be patient with new participants
- Remember that even private forums are somewhat public, and anything you post on a forum is available for sharing
- If you come into the discussion late, catch up on earlier posts before posting
Simple stuff that we all know, I'm sure, but it's good to remind ourselves from time-to-time...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 07-06-2020 at 03:43 AM.
07-06-2020, 03:36 AM - 1 Like   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
Here's a suggestion just for the News and Rumors section and no other area of Pentax Forums. Why not have a thumbs down just like the thumbs up for each post. Doing this would allow someone to express their disagreement with a post without getting into endless back and forth exchanges that eventually end up in the closure of an otherwise good thread discussion. Just a suggestion.

I too think that outside this section of Pentax Forums the discussions are very civil and often enlightening.
Well... there is a thumbs up in there..... right next to the report post icon
07-06-2020, 03:43 AM - 5 Likes   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by devouges Quote
Well... there is a thumbs up in there..... right next to the report post icon
Yes! I can't emphasise this enough.
Any early report is of far greater value than a reply in thread. It allows us moderators to get a consensus opinion and respond before things spiral out of control.
Once the vigilante posse starts to circle it gets much harder to clean up.
07-06-2020, 04:45 AM - 2 Likes   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
To the PF community:

I hope everyone is doing well and staying healthy in these unprecedented times (please check out our statement on the coronavirus if you haven't already). Like many other businesses, the camera industry has also suffered in the past months (e.g., low camera sales figures and more recently, the sale of the Olympus camera division, etc.). Consequently, even though it would seem that Pentax is coping quite well in comparison, we've been observing a steady rise in negative sentiment toward the Pentax brand throughout the community, which in some cases has led to unpleasant confrontations in forum threads and difficult decisions by the moderators.

In line with my mission of Pentax Forums being a friendly and inclusive community for Pentax users, we are going to be taking a series of steps to help minimize these kinds of unpleasantries going forward.
  • We are seeking additional moderators across multiple time zones to ensure that fewer issues that require moderator attention slip through the cracks (please visit this thread if interested)
  • To the extent possible, we will take a proactive approach to help members avoid issues, rather than directly stepping in to act on problematic post/threads
  • We will provide a greater degree of transparency regarding moderator actions in cases where a member disagrees with a decision that was made, even if the decision itself is not reversed
  • We will gather additional feedback from the community: please feel free to share your ideas in this thread (the moderators will not comment on specific incidents however), or contact the moderators privately
  • Although constructive criticism is welcome and encouraged, we will continue to maintain a firm stance against any form of bullying, trolling, or personal attacks.
To the latter point, I'd like to reiterate the statement that moderation team posted several months ago:



Thank you very much for your consideration, and - as always - many thanks for your valued contribution to the forums!
Venting one's "spleen" does not have positive value for the forum . Our purpose is to elevate and create , to share and learn .
07-06-2020, 06:48 AM - 1 Like   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by nzondlo Quote
If we can't voice our concerns with the brand here, on the brand's forums, them where is that discourse allowed to take place?
I didn't see anywhere that voicing our concerns is not allowed. What is not allowed, is when these concerns become disrespectful, or product bashing.
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