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07-06-2020, 06:51 AM - 2 Likes   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by csa Quote
I didn't see anywhere that voicing our concerns is not allowed. What is not allowed, is when these concerns become disrespectful, or product bashing.
Besides voicing concerns, we also need a place where we can be happy with the brand we chose.

07-06-2020, 06:57 AM - 4 Likes   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Besides voicing concerns, we also need a place where we can be happy with the brand we chose.
For me; I have to look no further, than right here for that!
07-06-2020, 07:00 AM   #153
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(Ever heard of VPN? The trolls might change IP address couple of times every hour. (But that's technical thing, we should focus more on the ethics.)

Trust me, there's more than the IP address that Administration uses to catch trolls that change IP addresses. For one, their manner of posting remains the same, therefore raising suspicion. There's many other ways to narrow them down, but I won't go into that.
07-06-2020, 12:12 PM - 1 Like   #154
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If Pentax wants to survive- I hope they will- costumer care is a must, not only as Clacker states instant care for the shareholders.
I have used m 42 pentax since the early sixties, later the k1000 with several Takumars. I have always been satisfied with that. I went digital with the k 30, I did no research concerning the quality of Pentax, i thought it was unnessecary.The possibility of using the old lenses and the cold weather performance was a big plus.
The K 30 got the aperture problems, it could not be repaired in Denmark, sending it out would cost a fortune.
I bought the first KP in Denmark, after 4 month it was defect. I t was replaced under warrenty.
When I was aware of the aperture problems, I tried to investigate a little, the result was that some Pentax lenses have had decentering problems and SDM issues. I lost my trust to Pentax quality. Furthermore I got problems with the AF but reading threads on PF learned me that I asked for too much of the pdaf, and I now live with a KP with splendid IQ except concerning spontaneous portraits. BUT how long will I be in almost Paradise????
Pentax fans must ask: is Pentax good value for the money? The answer is not simple. Why has Pentax almost dissapeared from Denmark?
I think that Pentax pays a big price for not being costumer freindly, from being a big and great player in the market till todays nieche place

07-06-2020, 12:28 PM - 8 Likes   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by niels hansen Quote
If Pentax wants to survive- I hope they will- costumer care is a must, not only as Clacker states instant care for the shareholders.
I have used m 42 pentax since the early sixties, later the k1000 with several Takumars. I have always been satisfied with that. I went digital with the k 30, I did no research concerning the quality of Pentax, i thought it was unnessecary.The possibility of using the old lenses and the cold weather performance was a big plus.
The K 30 got the aperture problems, it could not be repaired in Denmark, sending it out would cost a fortune.
I bought the first KP in Denmark, after 4 month it was defect. I t was replaced under warrenty.
When I was aware of the aperture problems, I tried to investigate a little, the result was that some Pentax lenses have had decentering problems and SDM issues. I lost my trust to Pentax quality. Furthermore I got problems with the AF but reading threads on PF learned me that I asked for too much of the pdaf, and I now live with a KP with splendid IQ except concerning spontaneous portraits. BUT how long will I be in almost Paradise????
Pentax fans must ask: is Pentax good value for the money? The answer is not simple. Why has Pentax almost dissapeared from Denmark?
I think that Pentax pays a big price for not being costumer freindly, from being a big and great player in the market till todays nieche place
With all due respect, Niels, this thread is about the welfare of PentaxForums and its members, rather than the Pentax brand and its future. Discussions on the latter crop up in these forums quite frequently, but here we're discussing forum behaviour and management of same, per Adam's original post. It's an important enough subject that we ought to stay on (or close to) topic...
07-06-2020, 01:38 PM - 5 Likes   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by csa Quote
For me; I have to look no further, than right here for that!
Of course. If a Pentax Forum won't do, there would be no place anywhere for us...

And here comes the first rule, the one making this our "home": this is Pentax Forums. Not Canon, nor Nikon, nor Sony...

By the way, I like the part about transparency (see Adam's first post) a lot.
07-06-2020, 10:10 PM - 3 Likes   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
this thread is about the welfare of PentaxForums and its members
^^^^ Exactly correct.^^^^
The moderators cannot be everywhere, and the moderation team relies heavily on the membership for alerting us to issues.
By not reporting an issue that a member feels is wrong, by default, that member is allowing it to continue.
The moderation team needs your help to have the type of forums you want to be a part of.

07-06-2020, 11:25 PM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
With all due respect, Niels, this thread is about the welfare of PentaxForums and its members, rather than the Pentax brand and its future. Discussions on the latter crop up in these forums quite frequently, but here we're discussing forum behaviour and management of same, per Adam's original post. It's an important enough subject that we ought to stay on (or close to) topic...
BIG MAC
You are wright, it should have been on the lawsuit thread. About the tone on PF. subjectively I find that critisism against Pentax, even well argumented . is not appreciated. I might prove this but it demands rereading lots of former threads, so I will leave it.
Can a moderator change my thread to the lawsuit thread + thanks
07-06-2020, 11:59 PM - 2 Likes   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by pjv Quote
No, the trolls will not keep trolling on. Of this, you can be sure.
There are trolls and there is trolling. There is a distinction in my mind at least. Trolls start threads with a provocative statement intent on staging a fight between known factions. That being done, they proceed to add logs to the fire and pass out popcorn. The direction and much of the content is their own and their creation.

Trolling, on the other hand, is the intentional poisoning of threads with orthogonal comments intended to create discord, to demean or ridicule, and to derail civil conversation and comments.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 07-07-2020 at 12:12 AM. Reason: removed non-helpful stuff
07-07-2020, 12:13 AM - 4 Likes   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
There are trolls and there is trolling.
Both are unacceptable.
07-07-2020, 02:39 AM - 4 Likes   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by niels hansen Quote
BIG MAC
You are wright, it should have been on the lawsuit thread. About the tone on PF. subjectively I find that critisism against Pentax, even well argumented . is not appreciated. I might prove this but it demands rereading lots of former threads, so I will leave it.
Can a moderator change my thread to the lawsuit thread + thanks
I guess I would say that often it isn't what you say it, but how you say it. Further, repeating criticism in lots of random threads is probably not helpful. Pentax isn't perfect, but if there is a thread on the K-new, it doesn't need to degenerate into, say, a discussion of the problems with SDM motors.
07-07-2020, 04:07 AM - 2 Likes   #162
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I am just going to leave this here! Sometimes we never get to the BOTTOM of the matter, we are ALL in it TOGETHER!
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Last edited by SharkyCA; 07-07-2020 at 04:09 AM. Reason: Add text.
07-07-2020, 05:38 AM - 3 Likes   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by niels hansen Quote
BIG MAC
You are wright, it should have been on the lawsuit thread. About the tone on PF. subjectively I find that critisism against Pentax, even well argumented . is not appreciated. I might prove this but it demands rereading lots of former threads, so I will leave it.
Can a moderator change my thread to the lawsuit thread + thanks
I notice when you say "well argumented" you didn't include anything about being factually correct.
People who include factual errors in their arguments get a rough ride, no matter how well their argument is composed. Some are more polite than others.

To me, one of the biggest qualifying attributes qualifying one for civil debate, is the ability to change your mind when you're wrong. No one wants to waste time on pontificators who just want a soap box for their erroneous opinions. The range of criticism of Pentax ranges from totally irresponsible to reasoned and thoughtful. So are the responses.

If you say the DFA*50 1.4 is really heavy and expensive, you get no argument. If you say it's not worth the money compared to some lens manufactured by the competition, you are so far off base as to warrant criticism. Because your position isn't factually correct. It's not fact, it's your opinion. And other people will have different opinions that are just as valid, even though they are diametrically opposed. For me heavy and expensive is a negative, for others it's neither heavy nor expensive. Even the factual is open to debate based on perspective. Opinions are an endless minefield.

People try and be as careful as possible in calling attention to factual errors, but way to often the person who posted unwarranted criticism reacts poorly.

So if you do an analysis, please include these kinds of considerations in you analysis, and be aware, that if you don't have the knowledge to understand when a factual error has been made, that's going to colour your perception of when a response is unreasonable.

So often someone comes in with their litany of reason why they might find Pentax's are unrewarding to use. For those of us who find Pentax's a pleasure to use, their opinions will be nonsense. The critics might want to take that into account before they post. There are a lot of us hear who thoroughly enjoy our gear, and someone's negative opinion doesn't change that. Before posting negtve opinions it would really help if people would sit back and ask themselves "why am I doing this?"

Last edited by normhead; 07-07-2020 at 06:22 AM.
07-07-2020, 05:52 AM - 1 Like   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
There are trolls and there is trolling. There is a distinction in my mind at least. Trolls start threads with a provocative statement intent on staging a fight between known factions. That being done, they proceed to add logs to the fire and pass out popcorn. The direction and much of the content is their own and their creation.

Trolling, on the other hand, is the intentional poisoning of threads with orthogonal comments intended to create discord, to demean or ridicule, and to derail civil conversation and comments.


Steve
You can add hijacking threads to that.
07-07-2020, 06:03 AM - 5 Likes   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
You can add hijacking threads to that.
Hijacking threads isn't necessarily trolling. Of the several hijacking incidences we've had lately a couple clearly were trolling, but some were more a case of person, or persons trying to brow-beat others into agreeing with their opinion.
Just as annoying and disruptive, but not really trolling.
Of course, that's just my opinion.
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