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07-23-2020, 09:52 AM - 6 Likes   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
FWIW I've read over at DPR that Canon's 5D MarkIV for instance also does some RAW baking to account for "lens aberrations, diffraction, and the deterioration of resolution caused by the low-pass filter" unless I'm misunderstanding.
Currently owning a couple of non Pentax cameras, I'm pretty sure everyone bakes their images. Absolutely no one gives you a straight read right off the sensor, and DPR knows it. But being DPR, it's only bad when Pentax does it. MY Lumix ZS100 images are so baked I have to deprocess, with sharpening and contrast values in the negatives.

You can say you don't like the way someone bakes their images... but that's different than pointing your finger at one company and saying "they bake their images". This line of thought is pure click bait with no real world meaning.

Those lying prieces of toilet paper over at DPR published that the K-1ii was a "star eater on steroids", before they actually took an image to prove it. When it comes to Pentax they are just fools. They never did explain how the camera is so good for astro-photography, given that it was a star eater on steroids. DPR are bunch of ignorant lazy idiots when it comes to Pentax. They have the integrity of slugs, and that's an insult to slugs. Slugs have no attitudes at all. DPR are haters.

No lie is so unfair, no criticism too inaccurate for DPR to publish when it comes to Pentax. They're unethical bottom feeders.

Imagine Resources is DPR without the bias. I still find it hard to believe DPR writers are so ethically challenged they don't see anything wrong with what they do. Grown-ups don't act like that.


Last edited by normhead; 07-23-2020 at 10:15 AM.
07-23-2020, 09:54 AM - 2 Likes   #272
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You mean when more and more surprisingly affordable full frame sensor cams are coming out, Pentax is going to price an APS-C cam higher? Hard to imagine that that's a good strategy to increase market share.

QuoteOriginally posted by taks Quote
Yes. Mr. Wakashiro did say he wanted to break the conventional notion that 'APS-C is an inferior product compared to FF' with this camera( what ever that means) around 12:25 in the video. I think he is also telling us that the Knew will be priced above K1II.
07-23-2020, 09:58 AM - 5 Likes   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by taks Quote
Yes. Mr. Wakashiro did say he wanted to break the conventional notion that 'APS-C is an inferior product compared to FF' with this camera( what ever that means) around 12:25 in the video. I think he is also telling us that the Knew will be priced above K1II.
I'm thinking it goes in the vein of "We have managed to obtain IQ that is almost as good as FF cameras of similar resolution while being faster in a smaller camera that takes smaller lenses".


About the price it will probably be around that of the K-1ii. Pentax might have changed their lineup plans to have both sensor sizes next to each other rather than the previous "FF is unequivocally higher tier than APS-C". This way they are both premium products with very distinct capabilities: APS-C for speed, FF for ultimate field camera. The implication, of course, is that the next FF camera they release will be a resolution monster with either the 45MP D850 sensor or the 42MP A7Riii chip, I guess. There's the 61MP A7R4 chip but it isn't much better in terms of IQ and it would make the camera shoot up in price.

---------- Post added 07-23-20 at 10:10 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Spodeworld Quote
You mean when more and more surprisingly affordable full frame sensor cams are coming out, Pentax is going to price an APS-C cam higher? Hard to imagine that that's a good strategy to increase market share.
If the K-New has IQ (almost) indistinguishable from the, say D780, while having distinct advantages such as the lenses being smaller and lighter, it would make sense to price accordingly.

There's the question of whether they manage that, of course, particularly at higher ISOs (the KP even with the accelerator doing a very good job starts to fall behind a bit at 1600+ to the 24/36/42 MP FF sensors), but the Ricoh Imaging people seem confident it will be very good and they have delivered excellent products consistently, so let's see.

The sensor size is one of the components and shouldn't automatically determine the "tier" of the cameras IMO. A decade ago it made a lot of sense to focus on the bigger sensors for "pro" stuff because the differences between formats were much more noticeable but things have been getting more blurred lately.

And hey, I have no dog here. I'm very happy with my K-1 and its features and have no plans to spend any money on an APS-C camera so the price is a non-factor for me. I am concerned with review sites and a bunch of vocal people complaining about the sensor size because it might hurt sales, but as long as the K-New sells I'm happy.

Last edited by Serkevan; 07-23-2020 at 10:13 AM.
07-23-2020, 10:19 AM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spodeworld Quote
You mean when more and more surprisingly affordable full frame sensor cams are coming out, Pentax is going to price an APS-C cam higher? Hard to imagine that that's a good strategy to increase market share.
I agree with that.

I do think however that if they come up with a stripped down FF model that doesn't have bells and whistles, then that can happen I suppose. I for one would consider such a camera. Heck, I would love an AW FF with a bright bad ass OVF without rear LCD panel, zillion fps, shake reduction, and Astrotracer. It does not have to be smaller than K-1, and I'll pay $1,500 for that.

"Most advanced" shtick will not catch my attention as much. I just a camera that has what I need.

07-23-2020, 10:21 AM   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
It got praised by DPReview, i.e., from the guys whose evaluation of cameras includes the JPEG "quality" (quality = "what plays to their preferences") at the camera's default settings.

Note, however that even DPReview wrote
"we suspect there's some 'baking' done to the Raw files. There are clear signs of noise reduction upon further analysis of the Raw (the green channel shows blotches of no detail where other cameras do not). And this comes at a cost - sometimes decreased detail, and odd cross-hatch patterning throughout the image" (emphasis is mine)
I don't know whether they wrote that in their original review -- i.e., without having any camera with a similar sensor to compare to and/or the hindsight about the K-1 II RAW file cooking -- or added it after their K-1 II investigation gave them an explanation for the unlikely results.

If the KP was praised by its users, that's fine. I don't think anyone arguing against a mandatory activation of the "accelerator unit" minds that some users like the results of the image-processing. The point is not that the RAW baking is evil and must always be avoided, the point is that it is detrimental to some applications.


It does not matter whether a fact is discovered by someone with credentials or not.
One can measure the details smoothing of the K-1 II with methods that are accepted by image processing experts. Once can also see the loss of detail with one's own eyes.

It's anyone's judgment whether they think there is no loss of detail, or that there is one but it's worth having as a very small byproduct of the otherwise welcome noise reduction, or that they'd rather get the data without "accelerator unit" involvement.


That's great. I think everyone is happy for you.

No need to suggest, though, that others, who don't take the same view, are "credential-less 'experts'".
Except pretty much everyone who posts on internet forums, including you and me, are lacking in credentials. I had a good hard look at the comparison that this website did between the K1 and K1II, and found that there was no lacking in detail in the newer cameras files until a pretty high ISO, at which point it was fairly obvious that some built in noise reduction was present, but honestly, nothing that I wouldn't be doing myself, and probably I would be less adroit about it.
I believe what I see with my own eyes, not what someone else tells me to see.
It is much ado about nothing.
07-23-2020, 10:21 AM   #276
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Watching the video you can see that there is now a dedicated Headphone and Mic jack on the side.
07-23-2020, 10:26 AM - 1 Like   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spodeworld Quote
You mean when more and more surprisingly affordable full frame sensor cams are coming out, Pentax is going to price an APS-C cam higher? Hard to imagine that that's a good strategy to increase market share.
Pentax knows what I know, a good APS-c camera is better than a crappy FF one, and a lot more economical, just in terms of lenses etc.

Richoh as whole isn't focussed on market share right now. They are focussed on premium quality product and return on investment. They were specifically instructed by their CEO, not to pursue market share. There's more than one way to make a profit.

At leastt on imaging resources, the K-P with the accelerator chip has as good high ISO performance as my K-1 without it. And the K-new accelerator chip was said in the video to be reydisnged and better than the first. From the sound of if I get the K-new, the K-1 will have lost it's low light advantage, leaving it with narrow DoF and resolution as it's advantages. Those are things I can live without.


Last edited by normhead; 07-23-2020 at 10:34 AM.
07-23-2020, 10:36 AM - 2 Likes   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spodeworld Quote
You mean when more and more surprisingly affordable full frame sensor cams are coming out, Pentax is going to price an APS-C cam higher? Hard to imagine that that's a good strategy to increase market share.
I don't think that it's especially correct to compare the price of a 5 year old camera with one that will be released in the next few weeks. Costs have increased, it's not surprising that a new model APS-C costs more than a 5 year old full frame.
There may also be some misunderstanding on your part about Pentax's need regarding increasing market share. That implies a go big or go home attitude, something that has been shown many times and in many industries to be unsustainable in the long term.
Was Leica in the 1960s interested in increasing market share against the Japanese camera makers? I hardly think so. I doubt very much if what was coming out of Japan was even on their radar. They just did what they did best, and charged a premium for doing it. It turns out that in the long term, it was a winning strategy.
There will always be customers whose sole motivator is how cheap can they get it for. At one time, this was Pentax's user base, the same user base that drove the company out of business and forced them to amalgamate with Hoya, and then Ricoh.
Most of those users have migrated to other brands, and frankly, good riddance. The constant complaining about how stuff was too expensive, how they would wait until the price came down to the point the manufacturer was taking a loss on the sale was, to be kind, tiresome.
Ricoh doesn't appear interested in repeating the mistakes of the past, and they certainly don't appear interested in creating a manufacturing Hydra that has to be fed vast amounts of customers to keep it sated. Nikon, Canon and Sony have all done that, and now all three are scrambling to keep from being eaten by the very beasts they have created.
07-23-2020, 10:41 AM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
That would mean no astrotracer and the like. Are people still willing to use the O-GPS1? The problem with features is that they very quickly become expectations.
Agreed. Maybe I'm just trying to keep the expectations "reasonable", well, in this regard "pessimistic", just by the indication that the viewfinder housing would have to accomodate more than usual and that there is no explicit GPS switch or button... I don't want to start a new point for "complaints" as this fact will be revealed as soon as the specs will be out.

By the way, new generations should be better called GNSS, as GPS is only the american satellites, BeiDou being the chinese system, Glonass the russian and Galileo the european and modern generations of receivers can utilize most of them. And they can be really tiny, as they are built into mobile phones, thus, fitting them above any prism should not be a problem.
07-23-2020, 10:51 AM - 2 Likes   #280
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I don't think that it's especially correct to compare the price of a 5 year old camera with one that will be released in the next few weeks. Costs have increased, it's not surprising that a new model APS-C costs more than a 5 year old full frame.
I think the point is that we are seeing new (mirrorless) FF cameras releasing at ever-decreasing prices with a bunch of cost-cutting in the process. Note the RP (sold for as little as 899 USD (!) body only a bit ago and came out about a year and a half ago) and the Z5, which is coming out at 1400 USD now. The Nikon has IBIS, the same AF as the Z6, weather sealing, two UHS-II card slots and an apparently-decent EVF. Of course, it has no top LCD, an older 24 MP sensor that manages 4.5 fps (watch DPR not slam it like they did the K-1) and its chassis is only partially magnesium alloy... it really looks entry level, so does the RP. I'd take a KP over either of them IMO.
07-23-2020, 10:58 AM - 2 Likes   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I think the point is that we are seeing new (mirrorless) FF cameras releasing at ever-decreasing prices with a bunch of cost-cutting in the process. Note the RP (sold for as little as 899 USD (!) body only a bit ago and came out about a year and a half ago) and the Z5, which is coming out at 1400 USD now. The Nikon has IBIS, the same AF as the Z6, weather sealing, two UHS-II card slots and an apparently-decent EVF. Of course, it has no top LCD, an older 24 MP sensor that manages 4.5 fps (watch DPR not slam it like they did the K-1) and its chassis is only partially magnesium alloy... it really looks entry level, so does the RP. I'd take a KP over either of them IMO.
Selling printers and making it up on ink? That's the entry-level tactic I suspect Canon and Nikon are hoping works. New mounts always help when you're trying to make your profits from the lenses and use the camera itself to break-even, cover all the sunk costs, hardware build, and marketing/support. At the prosumer/pro level the cameras are expected to pull their own weight and are priced accordingly. Not so at the entry side.

That's not a strategy Pentax could count on unless they're sunsetting the K-Mount and that would be a sure way of driving away the fans. Part of the Pentax attraction is the catalog of 100's of compatible lenses.

Last edited by gatorguy; 07-23-2020 at 11:07 AM.
07-23-2020, 10:59 AM - 1 Like   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spodeworld Quote
You mean when more and more surprisingly affordable full frame sensor cams are coming out, Pentax is going to price an APS-C cam higher? Hard to imagine that that's a good strategy to increase market share.
The body is only part of the system. On Pentax FF to get to the equivalent of 300mm on APS-C you have to buy a huge, nearly $2000 150-450. On FF the cheaper, lighter 70-210 costs $1000 and weighs 1.8 lbs. There is no FF version of a 55-300 PLM that costs $350 and weighs a pound. The new FA21 is probably going to be $1000 and is twice as large as the 15mm LTD that is $450 new, and there's an almost endless supply of good used copies for $300 and change.

Pentax has been mostly an APS-C company since the start of the digital era. To me it's silly to throw that away and expect everyone to jump into a larger, much more expensive system for incremental gains in image quality and disadvantages in reach and speed.
07-23-2020, 11:02 AM   #283
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Selling printers and making it up on ink? That's the tactic I suspect Canon and Nikon are hoping works. New mounts always help when you're trying to make your profits from the lenses.

That's not a strategy Pentax could count on unless they're sunsetting the K-Mount and that would be a sure way of driving away the fans.
Nikon got the right idea by crippling their FTZ adapter to not work with all the older AF lenses, but Canon somehow managed to get their EF-RF adapter working more or less flawlessly from what I see. They might have hired someone with a modicum of empathy

---------- Post added 07-23-20 at 11:09 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
The body is only part of the system. On Pentax FF to get to the equivalent of 300mm on APS-C you have to buy a huge, nearly $2000 150-450. On FF the cheaper, lighter 70-210 costs $1000 and weighs 1.8 lbs. There is no FF version of a 55-300 PLM that costs $350 and weighs a pound. The new FA21 is probably going to be $1000 and is twice as large as the 15mm LTD that is $450 new, and there's an almost endless supply of good used copies for $300 and change.

Pentax has been mostly an APS-C company since the start of the digital era. To me it's silly to throw that away and expect everyone to jump into a larger, much more expensive system for incremental gains in image quality and disadvantages in reach and speed.
To be fair the D FA 21 Limited is most likely going to be a tad faster than the 15 and it's a mm or so wider... the reasonable comparison would be the DA 14. And my M20/4 is smaller, lighter and wider than the 15, hah!

Telephoto is where it's at for the APS-C advantage (which is even more pronounced with the M4/3 stuff) indeed, although so far the 55-300 on a K-1 works well enough that I'm probably going to buy one, and that's after getting a 400/5.6 two weeks ago .
07-23-2020, 11:23 AM - 1 Like   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Selling printers and making it up on ink? That's the entry-level tactic I suspect Canon and Nikon are hoping works. New mounts always help when you're trying to make your profits from the lenses and use the camera itself to break-even, cover all the sunk costs, hardware build, and marketing/support. At the prosumer/pro level the cameras are expected to pull their own weight and are priced accordingly. Not so at the entry side.

That's not a strategy Pentax could count on unless they're sunsetting the K-Mount and that would be a sure way of driving away the fans. Part of the Pentax attraction is the catalog of 100's of compatible lenses.
Or giving away a free razor to make sales in blades. When I was 13 or thereabouts, Bic dropped a Trac II razor and a couple of blade cartridges into every mailbox in Canada. I was at about the right age to be starting to use a razor, so I took it on as my own. It was differentiated from the store sold ones by the back, which was black plastic rather than chromed plastic, and I recall it said "not for resale" on the handle.
Not important.
What was important was that other than a few dalliances with a straight razor, I used that Bic handle for a quarter century until I lost it while camping in Idaho. They gave me the handle, I guarantee that small investment was repaid thousands of times over in blades.
In cameras, entry level is all about getting you in the door. The hope is that you will develop some brand loyalty, and when it comes time to upgrade, you will stay in family. Other than the people who jump from brand to brand until they settle on a camera that takes an excellent picture of a test chart, it is, more or less, a good strategy, one that has served most manufacturers across the spectrum for decades.
The only problem with entry level cameras now is that the market is being eaten by cell phone cameras. I just bought my wife an iPhone 11 Pro yesterday. It takes pretty nice pictures.
More and more, the cell phone makers are taking away the reason to buy an entry level camera. The market won't go away, but it might become nonviable anyway.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 07-23-2020 at 11:31 AM.
07-23-2020, 11:23 AM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I think the point is that we are seeing new (mirrorless) FF cameras releasing at ever-decreasing prices with a bunch of cost-cutting in the process. Note the RP (sold for as little as 899 USD (!) body only a bit ago and came out about a year and a half ago) and the Z5, which is coming out at 1400 USD now. The Nikon has IBIS, the same AF as the Z6, weather sealing, two UHS-II card slots and an apparently-decent EVF. Of course, it has no top LCD, an older 24 MP sensor that manages 4.5 fps (watch DPR not slam it like they did the K-1) and its chassis is only partially magnesium alloy... it really looks entry level, so does the RP. I'd take a KP over either of them IMO.
When one want high performing FF mirrorless, and lenses to go with it, it is going to cost some. There are also aps-c cameras at entry price and with less everything. It is ridiculous to compare these, but still many do so. Still many buys a7II and get adapter. If even so or they will use what they have and continue this debate, new models come and go.

Really looking forward of the specs and how it will actually fare. Some how many pentaxians have took and are still taking incredible photos and I do suspect it is going to be more easy from now on. Maybe even too easy. We will see.

With aps-c and size/performance ratio and comfort and joy of photographing at high quality, seems to be what they are going for now. Let us see what happens.
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