[thibs]

It has been a long time coming. They could have put a souped-up KP in a flagship body in no time at all, so there has to be more, much more. Expecting a lot.

But in the meantime, the competition is leaping ahead. Slow and steady usually does not win the race.

I don't think you realize how difficult it is to develop a camera.

[Wheatfield]

The thing is that Pentax AF has -just improved- over the yrs. They have put their engineering to other places, like shutter, durability, functions, WR, SR ... making their gear great for outdoors and on top of that there must have been quite straight budget under Previous owner. AF has been perfectly usable, and that is it. That is how it has been. A lot has happened from K-7 to K-3. Including Ricoh taking over. And they did fine job. On top of that they really have put things on the table and wanted to get their gear updated. Now, this does not happen over the night.

What I find hard to understand is why people don’t see this? Hoping for fast news from K-new to put end of this thing. Still, it will not be 1000 AF focus points. It is the new beginning regardless. This is product that has actually been developed under Ricoh. And they really have put a lot of effort and time to it, as the old AF system was in the place where it could not be developed further, this should be and who knows, this could be scaled to work with FF and 645 so that AF points are not just cramped to middle.

I think people see it, but they also see how much faster the other camera makers are doing the same thing.

---------- Post added Aug 4th, 2020 at 10:09 AM ----------

Right. It is hard to measure something like AF-performance when so many variables are included. I don't know of any systematic tests lately. There was one attempt in 2011 by german Colorfoto, with actually surprising results:

Camera/sharp images/acceptable images/blurred images
EOS 7D 40,2% 29.7% 30%
Nikon D7000 35.2% 40% 24.8%
Olympus E-P1 57% 29% 14%
Pentax K-5 62.4% 28.9% 8.6%
Sony Alpha55 62.1% 16.4% 21.4%
Panasonic Lumix GH1 85.3% 14% 0.7%

Probably does not align with common reception though.

Just for AF-C unsystematic tests which generate numeric values are highly problematic. For every camera there might be a speed treshhold under which tracking might work as intended. If I mage a test with an object coming towards the photographer with a certain speed I might get 100% keepers with a certain speed but no keepers with a only slightly higher speed. Let's say a cyclist is coming towards me with 10 km/h and the camera can track it without problems. If the cyclist comes with 20 km/h and camera A can track it and produce 60% sharp images while camera B still has 100% it is safe to say that camera B is better in this regard. But camera B may fall to the same rate at 25km/h. The fallacy lies now in claims that camera B is 40% better for AF-C than camera A from a single test. In most cases a conceived difference is just a fact, but producing quantitative "data" to proof that should be a little bit of a more controlled process, else it is just false precision and pseudoscience.

What the Colorfoto test showed was that Pentax AF was more consistently accurate under one set of conditions. The omission was in mentioning how slow the AF was about getting there. There may also have been an omission about how the AF fell on it's face for accuracy in anything other than broad daylight if they were using a K5.

---------- Post added Aug 4th, 2020 at 10:10 AM ----------

There are plenty of successful products that earn profits for their makers that do not win races. My 4x4 truck would never win a race but it is tough and dependable, and the model sells well. Similarly, not everyone's photographic requirements centre on covering athletic events or making YouTube videos, even though makers of YouTube videos would have us believe that making YouTube videos is the most important thing in the world.

Your 4x4 truck is in a different kind of race.

[repaap]

I think people see it, but they also see how much faster the other camera makers are doing the same thing.

With the exception that they are not actually doing the same thing. But who cares.

[Wheatfield]

If you are really concerned about those things and see better cameras from other manufacturers, then go and buy them.

I suppose it was only a matter of time before that poor old nag got her heart started again so she could stagger out of the barn and limp around the paddock before collapsing in a heap again.

---------- Post added Aug 4th, 2020 at 10:21 AM ----------

There seems to be a common misconception that every product is in competition with every similar product; but the Ford F150 isn't in competition with the Mini Cooper. The Chevy Corvette isn't in competition with the Jeep Wrangler, and the Pentax K-New isn't necessarily in competition with the <insert any (or all) Nikon models here>

The F150 isn't in competition with a Mini Cooper, but it is in competition with full size pick up trucks from GM, Dodge, Nissan and Toyota. The Corvette may not be in competition with a Jeep, but it does have to compete with vehicles from Audi, BMW, Dodge, Jaguar, Porsche and McLaren.
They are competing against like vehicles in their market segment, the same way Pentax is competing against like cameras in it's market segment.
What you seem to be saying is that because a Mini Cooper and an F150 both have 4 wheels, they are similar products with similar end use goals. I suggest that you know full well that this is not the case, even though both are used as daily driver vehicles by the majority of owners.

---

Last edited by Wheatfield; 08-04-2020 at 09:23 AM.

[ThorSanchez]

There seems to be a common misconception that every product is in competition with every similar product; but the Ford F150 isn't in competition with the Mini Cooper. The Chevy Corvette isn't in competition with the Jeep Wrangler, and the Pentax K-New isn't necessarily in competition with the <insert any (or all) Nikon models here>

With the emphasis on "dynamism" in the K-new I think Pentax came to the realization that carving out a sharply defined market for APS-C shooters who can't stand EVFs, don't need video, and mainly deal with static subjects but need a rugged body gives them a potential user base of 455 people.

It would be like if Toyota decided the Tundra wasn't competing with the RAM and the F150 and the Silverado, but was just for a niche of people who wanted a 1.5 ton stepside, short-bed, non-crew-cab pickup with a manual transmission and no center console display, a 2-DIN radio and a conventional tailgate. Yep, that's not competing with an F150, but it's the perfect choice for the 18 people with that requirement set.

[Wheatfield]

With the exception that they are not actually doing the same thing. But who cares.

No, they aren't doing her same thing. They are doing different things, and they have, in the case of autofocus, done enough different things that Pentax AF has been left at the side of the road with an empty gas tank.
That is what people seem concerned about. If Pentax was doing the same thing with AF as the other manufacturers have done, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
A decade ago, a friend on the PDML showed me a series of pictures of her Belgian Shepherd running towards her at full tilt. The series was shot with whatever Canon she was using at the time and one of their pro series zoom lenses, it might have been an EOS1. Every shot was tack sharp.
I happened to have a sister of her dog. My Pentax wouldn't track my dog beyond a walking pace, and even that was iffy. My K1 and D FA*50/1.4 won't track my much slower Rottweiler (they aren't built for speed) running towards me.
So you are correct, Pentax isn't doing the same thing as the other manufacturers, and this is really kind of sad.

[The Squirrel Mafia]

If the AF.C will be as good as the the D7500, I think it will be good enough. I have learned to work my way around the Pentax AF and it ain't that bad. Maybe more steps but not bad.

I'd be super happy if the K-new has similar AF performance to the D7500. That camera has very good AF. It has better AF than the older D7200, which was already pretty good. The D7500's AF Fine Tune feature makes it more accurate too, though it has limitations. If Nikon would have added IBIS to their D7200 & D7500, I don't think I would have ever made it to Pentax land.

[Wheatfield]

With the emphasis on "dynamism" in the K-new I think Pentax came to the realization that carving out a sharply defined market for APS-C shooters who can't stand EVFs, don't need video, and mainly deal with static subjects but need a rugged body gives them a potential user base of 455 people.

It would be like if Toyota decided the Tundra wasn't competing with the RAM and the F150 and the Silverado, but was just for a niche of people who wanted a 1.5 ton stepside, short-bed, non-crew-cab pickup with a manual transmission and no center console display, a 2-DIN radio and a conventional tailgate. Yep, that's not competing with an F150, but it's the perfect choice for the 18 people with that requirement set.

Now now, it's actually closer to 472 people.
I saw the same thing as your truck comparison with the Nissan Titan XD Diesel. It's an expensive truck, being a diesel, but unlike it's diesel competition, it has a relatively low tow capacity and a relatively low cargo capacity.
They put a truck on the market that was under-specified in every single metric that truck buyers care about.
OTOH, what it does, it does with ease.
I never felt fully in control of things with my gas Titan pulling a 6k lb trailer. The truck was always working, and even a moderate grade would cause it to run out of power, and quite often, the tail was definitely wagging the dog. My very under-specified XD Diesel pulls the same trailer easily, the trailer never feels like it is taking over steering chores, it never seems to be working especially hard, it barely notices moderate grades and doesn't really start working hard until I start driving relatively steep mountain passes.

Apparently in the 4 years Nissan made the truck they sold as many units as a small Ford Dealer sells F150s in a slow week. For me it's about perfect, but it is definitely a small niche vehicle that missed the mark for most truck customers.

[repaap]

No, they aren't doing her same thing. They are doing different things, and they have, in the case of autofocus, done enough different things that Pentax AF has been left at the side of the road with an empty gas tank.
That is what people seem concerned about. If Pentax was doing the same thing with AF as the other manufacturers have done, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
A decade ago, a friend on the PDML showed me a series of pictures of her Belgian Shepherd running towards her at full tilt. The series was shot with whatever Canon she was using at the time and one of their pro series zoom lenses, it might have been an EOS1. Every shot was tack sharp.
I happened to have a sister of her dog. My Pentax wouldn't track my dog beyond a walking pace, and even that was iffy. My K1 and D FA*50/1.4 won't track my much slower Rottweiler (they aren't built for speed) running towards me.
So you are correct, Pentax isn't doing the same thing as the other manufacturers, and this is really kind of sad.

Well, we will see if they are making a change to that now.

---------- Post added 08-04-20 at 19:59 ----------

Now now, it's actually closer to 472 people.
I saw the same thing as your truck comparison with the Nissan Titan XD Diesel. It's an expensive truck, being a diesel, but unlike it's diesel competition, it has a relatively low tow capacity and a relatively low cargo capacity.
They put a truck on the market that was under-specified in every single metric that truck buyers care about.
OTOH, what it does, it does with ease.
I never felt fully in control of things with my gas Titan pulling a 6k lb trailer. The truck was always working, and even a moderate grade would cause it to run out of power, and quite often, the tail was definitely wagging the dog. My very under-specified XD Diesel pulls the same trailer easily, the trailer never feels like it is taking over steering chores, it never seems to be working especially hard, it barely notices moderate grades and doesn't really start working hard until I start driving relatively steep mountain passes.

Apparently in the 4 years Nissan made the truck they sold as many units as a small Ford Dealer sells F150s in a slow week. For me it's about perfect, but it is definitely a small niche vehicle that missed the mark for most truck customers.

When I was touring at North America, there were numerous F150 trucks sitting by the high way, broken down. I believe it is so cheap that it is better just to buy a new one. F150 must be one of most wanted trucks. I’v seen even couple of them or F250 at Finland. Vety expensive to drive at here.

At here they drive Hiace or Mitsubishi L200, diesel trucks.

[cfraz]

With the emphasis on "dynamism" in the K-new I think Pentax came to the realization that carving out a sharply defined market for APS-C shooters who can't stand EVFs, don't need video, and mainly deal with static subjects but need a rugged body gives them a potential user base of 455 people.

It would be like if Toyota decided the Tundra wasn't competing with the RAM and the F150 and the Silverado, but was just for a niche of people who wanted a 1.5 ton stepside, short-bed, non-crew-cab pickup with a manual transmission and no center console display, a 2-DIN radio and a conventional tailgate. Yep, that's not competing with an F150, but it's the perfect choice for the 18 people with that requirement set.

All those people who a wanted long-bed, crew-cab, auto tranny, center console, 3-DIN radio and trick tailgate pickup and bought the Tundra must be really, really mad at Toyota now.

[ZeljkoS]

To be honest, I will be very disappointed if AF is not on par with at least 80D or D7500 . I love my K-5IIs for image quality, but actually focusing on anything moving was always pure luck.
I'm not a sports shooter, but it would be nice to be able to focus on a moving target once in a while... Would love to have at least one photo of my daughter running and in focus

[jatrax]

For me Pentax AF has always been highly accurate and fast enough. For my use case. I don't shoot things that move so its never been an issue. For those that do shoot moving objects I can understand the frustration. But I do think that it is important to make a distinction between autofocus and focus tracking. As far as I can tell from my experience the Pentax AF is very accurate and as fast as the lens used allows. Focus tracking on the other hand is, well, not so good.

I remember reading not long after they purchased Pentax that Ricoh stated they wanted to have the best AF on the market. I'm not sure they appreciated the magnitude of that task then. To get there they would have to update the AF sensor, the tracking software, the image processor, the CPU that handles the tracking and the lens mechanical AF speed. Since I doubt they have a magic wand for any of that I can only imagine the amount of work that has been required in order to make that goal come true.

Basically they would have needed to fundamentally change the underlying architecture of the camera focusing system and the lens focusing mechanisms. They have made large advances in the lenses over the last few years with the PLM lens design starting to show the future. The K-new will hopefully be the start of a new architecture that can take advantage of the lens hardware. If they have indeed abandoned the Milbeaut system then they would have had to start from ground zero with a new processor. Not something anyone would want to do casually. And requiring, I would think, a ground up rewrite of all of their software involved.

It is one thing to make incremental changes to a proven system: K-7->K-5->K-3->K-1, but to decide that the architecture they have used for decades has reached its limit and they need to start over if they want to continue to improve is something quite different.

I am really looking forward to see whether the K-new is indeed NEW or just an incremental improvement on an existing system.

---------- Post added 08-04-20 at 10:18 AM ----------

I love my K-5IIs for image quality, but actually focusing on anything moving was always pure luck

K-5IIs is three generations behind Pentax current technology. And really not a good comparison.

[Wheatfield]

Well, we will see if they are making a change to that now.

I believe they are, but it has to be recognized that regarding AF, they are still playing catch up to a couple of generations ago at the very least.

When I was touring at North America, there were numerous F150 trucks sitting by the high way, broken down. I believe it is so cheap that it is better just to buy a new one. F150 must be one of most wanted trucks. I’v seen even couple of them or F250 at Finland. Vety expensive to drive at here.

At here they drive Hiace or Mitsubishi L200, diesel trucks.

The F150 is the most popular consumer vehicle in North America by a wide margin. Light trucks account for close to 70% of all vehicle sales in North America, Ford sells about 50% more F150s than the closest competition (Chevy and Dodge).
No surprise then that there are more of them at the side of the road, sheer numbers dictate that. I have also noticed a trend where people ask their trucks to do more than the truck is capable of doing. This makes them break during use.

[reh321]

No, they aren't doing her same thing. They are doing different things, and they have, in the case of autofocus, done enough different things that Pentax AF has been left at the side of the road with an empty gas tank.
That is what people seem concerned about. If Pentax was doing the same thing with AF as the other manufacturers have done, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
A decade ago, a friend on the PDML showed me a series of pictures of her Belgian Shepherd running towards her at full tilt. The series was shot with whatever Canon she was using at the time and one of their pro series zoom lenses, it might have been an EOS1. Every shot was tack sharp.
I happened to have a sister of her dog. My Pentax wouldn't track my dog beyond a walking pace, and even that was iffy. My K1 and D FA*50/1.4 won't track my much slower Rottweiler (they aren't built for speed) running towards me.
So you are correct, Pentax isn't doing the same thing as the other manufacturers, and this is really kind of sad.

Have you used a recent Pentax camera with a recent lens???

They have made the needed progress!

[Serkevan]

But I do think that it is important to make a distinction between autofocus and focus tracking.

As far as I can tell, there isn't a single ILC model in production right now without basically perfect (after fine-tuning when needed) AF.S single point performance. Any talk about AF performance will always refer to tracking or, at the very least, the more complicated "detection" modes in AF.S. Basic AF is a moot point today, it would be like saying that IQ at base ISO downsampled to 1920x1080 looks great.

---------- Post added 08-04-20 at 10:51 AM ----------

Have you used a recent Pentax camera with a recent lens???

They have made the needed progress!

Recent-est combo I have is K-1 + D FA 28-105 (DC motor). It works well but if I allow the camera to go to auto-area focus the camera tends to purposefully avoid picking the subject I have my mind on .

Honestly, for my uses the AF of Pentax is plenty. I'm substantially better at composing than the landscapes are at running away (for now ), but I can see why others would be less than impressed.