Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Closed Thread
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
09-05-2020, 03:41 PM - 2 Likes   #226
Pentaxian
Lord Lucan's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: South Wales
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 912
QuoteOriginally posted by SoonerCaniac Quote
And l also am not impressed with a few millimeters here or there.
Yes, if Pentax think they are going to impress many people by having saved 3-4 mm they have got it wrong. The reviewers and buyers generally are not going to say "Gee-whizz - they saved 3 mm!" (unless in sarcasm), they are going to say "What the heck?? a new camera in 2020 without at least a tilt screen!" The yardstick for body depth reduction is now the mirrorless stuff from Socanonikon, and given Pentax's policy of sticking with pentaprisms (which is OK by me) there is no point in trying to chase after the mirrorless crowd in this respect - Pentax will just look like a loser. I have bought quite a few cameras in the past and have never yet chosen one on the basis of examining the body dimensions down to the millimeter.

There are many people who genuinely have no use for a flip screen, fine, but I believe that only a small percentage of those people would positively avoid buying a camera that had one, because you don't have to use it. It's like I have no use for GPS, video or WiFi but that did not stop me buying a camera that had them, I just don't use them. OTOH people who positively do want a flip screen (whether for good reason or not) won't buy the K-new, so significant sales are lost.

Let me guess that with a flip screen, 1 sale in 10 is lost because of people who insist on not having a flip screen; while without a flip screen, 5 sales in 10 are lost because of people who do want one. I'm pulling figures out of the air, but I bet it is something like that.

09-05-2020, 05:14 PM - 4 Likes   #227
dbs
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Clare Valley S A
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,847
Hi Lord

Plucking figures is fine but I think your 5 per 10 would have been 2 per 10 if we hadn't had the last 3 months bashing the rear screen.
Only my thoughts

Dave
09-05-2020, 06:00 PM   #228
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
jumbleview's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Concord, CA
Posts: 535
Pentax tries to stand out from the herd. Nobody is surprised by articulated screen anymore. Pentax emphasizes on quality of the pentaprism and OVF. Is it right market strategy? We will see. That depends in the fact if indeed OVF will be superior to competitors. And what would be the focus improvement. Where I definitely feel use of articulated screen is in closeup photography. So I need to decide if I want to upgrade from K5II to K-new or K-1ii. If K-new indeed that good I 'l buy it, otherwise used K-1. Anyway my decision i'll postpone at least till the next spring. Unlikely I'll jump the ship.
09-05-2020, 06:16 PM - 2 Likes   #229
Custom User Title
Loyal Site Supporter
FozzFoster's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Alberta
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,023
I've said this before:

The industry leading Ricoh Theta cameras doesn't even have a LCD screen for people to chimp on..
It's in integrated relationship with a smartphone..
It's not a bad idea.. if they can pull off snappy connection and quick file transfer as good as the Theta.
A modern camera needs to be able to compete with the camera in a smartphone, so the two need to be integrated deeply.
Once you see the screen on your phone as an articulating screen for the camera, then having two articulating screens seems redundant and cost-ineffective.
I don't know about you, but I always have a smartphone on me - and if it were as easy as opening an app and clicking a button, and I have live-view connection, no problems.

09-05-2020, 06:30 PM - 1 Like   #230
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: 5th floor
Posts: 1,471
QuoteOriginally posted by FozzFoster Quote
I've said this before:

The industry leading Ricoh Theta cameras doesn't even have a LCD screen for people to chimp on..
It's in integrated relationship with a smartphone..
It's not a bad idea.. if they can pull off snappy connection and quick file transfer as good as the Theta.
A modern camera needs to be able to compete with the camera in a smartphone, so the two need to be integrated deeply.
Once you see the screen on your phone as an articulating screen for the camera, then having two articulating screens seems redundant and cost-ineffective.
I don't know about you, but I always have a smartphone on me - and if it were as easy as opening an app and clicking a button, and I have live-view connection, no problems.
I have said the same. Itís not like this requires a huge leap in technology. Or, have a small spiffy separate module that works as a back up and sports a LCD screen that can be attached to the body or something like that.
09-05-2020, 06:37 PM - 1 Like   #231
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
jumbleview's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Concord, CA
Posts: 535
No need in GPS as well

QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I have said the same. Itís not like this requires a huge leap in technology. Or, have a small spiffy separate module that works as a back up and sports a LCD screen that can be attached to the body or something like that.
If indeed that integration of K-new with the Phone will be that good, there is no need to have GPS embedded. Smartphones nowadays as a rule has GPS.
09-05-2020, 06:49 PM   #232
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,913
If the K-new delivers something amazing in terms of viewfinder, AF, video or introduces something else that is truly useful, maybe that could balance out the absence of flippy for many.
09-05-2020, 09:27 PM - 2 Likes   #233
PDL
Pentaxian




Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,957
QuoteOriginally posted by jumbleview Quote
If indeed that integration of K-new with the Phone will be that good, there is no need to have GPS embedded. Smartphones nowadays as a rule has GPS.
I have to disagree. GPS is essential for some of us.
In my travels, across this planet I have become dependent on Geotagging my images. I a currently going through and updating (keywording) my vacation 20 Scotland in 2012 taken with my K20D. It takes me quite a long time to update the location information and having that information put into the keywords. The keywords are location specific referring to names of objects that have changed since 2012. I spent almost an hour looking on Google streets trying to find a pub with a specific sign. I found the tavern by noticing the frame holding the new sign. Now, If I had the GPS information, all I would have had to do was put in the name of the tavern.

On my 2017 vacation I took just a little over 6000 images in 8 countries. Having GPS on that trip was one of the reasons I bought my K-3II so I could find out "where I was" when I took a particular image. On my vacation to New Zealand in 2006 I shot with my *ist Ds and I left my phone at home since I could not use my US phone there. (No it was not "smart" and it did not have GPS) If I had a mechanism to use GPS it would mean that those images would be labeled and keyworded. This was before GPS was readily available via phones, which requires that you transfer or correlate that GPS information back to the images. This was a vacation, not a project in computers (I was a IT employee at the time and I did not want to "work" on my vacation). I also did not have a laptop with me, just a 30GB portable HD with a built in SD reader. Having GPS on that vacation would have been invaluable since a good number of the images were of buildings/things that were destroyed in the 2011-12 earthquakes. Google/Bing just does not work since those buildings are not there anymore and their names have been erased.

GPS is a requirement for me and others. On board flash is not. The K-new should start with the K-3II as the baseline. The fundamental features of the K-3II should be the starting point. Ricoh should not eliminate any of the baseline features - it should improve features not remove them.

09-05-2020, 11:08 PM   #234
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
jumbleview's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Concord, CA
Posts: 535
QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
I have to disagree. GPS is essential for some of us.
GPS is a requirement for me and others.
Indeed. I am speaking about tight integration (hypothetical) between camera and smartphone, so GPS data collected by a phone available to the camera at once.
09-05-2020, 11:24 PM   #235
Senior Member




Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 150
I might have to disagree with the reasoning of those speaking in favor of being able to use your smartphone as a screen.

If you go back and read the volume 3 article, the argument for fixing the screen is not only an argument of saving space. It is also an argument that they actively want us to look through the viewfinder. Allowing to use a phone instead as a screen would totally defeat that purpose, if that was a strong reason behind fixing the screen in the first place. Then they might as well just have incorporated a flippy screen.

I think encouraging viewfinder usage is the real reasoning behind fixing the screen, and the space-saving argument is just a side-argument. This falls perfectly in line with their new strategy, and fixing the screen was probably a very conscious decision. The space-saving argument may be an attempt to simply appease those who do not understand or appreciate this method of shooting.

Quotes from volume 3:

"At PENTAX, we prioritize viewfinder shooting, so we pay the utmost attention to the appearance of the viewfinder image.."

"Since a reduced body depth makes for a greater protrusion of the viewfinder eyepiece — which provides the benefit of keeping the photographer’s nose from coming in contact with the LCD monitor — it can make viewfinder shooting more comfortable."

"Featuring a high-refraction glass pentaprism, finally perfected after many years of developmental effort, the new camera comes equipped with a remarkable optical viewfinder. While the camera has an APS-C-format SLR design, the viewfinder provides an angle of view almost equal to that of full-frame SLR models. We believe in boosting the excitement and pleasure of capturing images through the use of an optical viewfinderwe want you to directly observe, experience and feel the actual light streaming through the viewfinder."

Directly from their new strategy, "five principles of Pentax", principle number two:

"Our goal is to produce cameras with the power to capture images that allow for direct communication with the subject." (in other words: viewfinder shooting.)

Allowing your smartphone to play the role of a flippy screen would simply defeat the purpose of encouraging viewfinder shooting. I believe people underestimate how conscious this decision is, and it was probably decided long before any arguments about saving space were developed to justify it to the people who wouldn't appreciate this line of thinking. If they were going to let you use your phone, it would probably have been mentioned in the last article to appease the naysayers.

From my personal point of view, coming from film cameras and appreciating the 'old way' of doing things, I find this whole lack of a flippy screen, and the promotion of viewfinder shooting an awesome feature.

Last edited by Flubber; 09-05-2020 at 11:38 PM.
09-05-2020, 11:43 PM - 1 Like   #236
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 13,039
QuoteOriginally posted by Flubber Quote
I might have to disagree with the reasoning of those speaking in favor of being able to use your smartphone as a screen.

If you go back and read the volume 3 article, the argument for fixing the screen is not only an argument of saving space. It is also an argument that they actively want us to look through the viewfinder. Allowing to use a phone instead as a screen would totally defeat that purpose, if that was a strong reason behind fixing the screen in the first place. Then they might as well just have incorporated a flippy screen.

[...]

Allowing your smartphone to play the role of a flippy screen would simply defeat the purpose of encouraging viewfinder shooting. I believe people underestimate how conscious this decision is, and it was probably decided long before any arguments about saving space were developed to justify it to the people who wouldn't appreciate this line of thinking. If they were going to let you use your phone, it would probably have been mentioned in the last article to appease the naysayers.

From my personal point of view, coming from film cameras and appreciating the 'old way' of doing things, I find this whole lack of a flippy screen, and the promotion of viewfinder shooting an awesome feature.
That can't be right. They will allow using a smartphone, via Image Sync probably - there's no reason not to and that's why they have WiFi and Bluetooth LE for.
They're not promoting the use of viewfinder by restricting your other options. They are promoting the use of viewfinder by making it the best APS-C viewfinder ever.
09-05-2020, 11:48 PM   #237
Senior Member




Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 150
You could be right - none of us know for sure, of course. But we may simply read these articles differently. This is just my interpretation. They seem (keyword: seem) to have been putting the most r&d into the viewfinder, probably in an attempt to distinguish themselves from other brands. Coming up with lots of options to make viewfinder usage less likely seems self-defeating to me, because then you're going to be like most other cameras out there, and many won't be using the very thing you've put so many resources into. Many people have commented that they don't care about saving a few mm's, but if Pentax were seriously worried about the market that wants flipscreens, don't you think they would have mentioned the app in the latest article, instead of simply justifying what the camera won't do?

Admittedly, I am no tech wizard, so this question may be naive: but couldn't the wifi/bluetooth connection simply be for transferring photos, like you see on other cameras?

A few days ago people were seeing flippyscreens where there were none. Now they might be seeing apps where there are none.

I don't agree that there's "no reason not to". If you want to encourage viewfinder shooting, that's a reason. Whether you agree with the reason or think it's a good one, that's another discussion entirely.

---------- Post added 09-06-20 at 12:10 AM ----------

With that said, I have no problem with them incorporating phone controls, if they have. I'm just hoping they will announce the specs soon, so that we don't have to speculate anymore.

Last edited by Flubber; 09-06-2020 at 12:11 AM.
09-06-2020, 12:28 AM - 2 Likes   #238
Pentaxian
thibs's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Photos: Albums
Posts: 6,088
QuoteOriginally posted by jumbleview Quote
If indeed that integration of K-new with the Phone will be that good, there is no need to have GPS embedded. Smartphones nowadays as a rule has GPS.
Wrong (somewhat). Azimuth and direction for Astrotracer are still needed.
09-06-2020, 01:53 AM - 5 Likes   #239
JPT
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Tokyo
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,722
QuoteOriginally posted by jumbleview Quote
Indeed. I am speaking about tight integration (hypothetical) between camera and smartphone, so GPS data collected by a phone available to the camera at once.
If the objective is just location tagging, the GR III, which does not have built-in GPS, will record the location in the image file when it is paired with a smartphone.

It's mentioned on the FAQ page
GR III | FAQ | Support | RICOH IMAGING
Question: What kind of operation can be done with the communication device?

I'm not interested in GPS tagging myself so I hadn't tried until now, but for the sake of this discussion I gave it a try. You need to pair the camera to the smartphone and change "Store Location Info." to "on" in the GR's menu. When you do this a little satellite icon appears at the top of the GR's screen to indicate it is active. When I took a photo like this, imported it from the camera to my computer (i.e. by the SD card and not via an import to the phone), the location data was there and accurate. If i switch the camera off and on again after a few minutes, it will reconnect and the satellite icon lights up again without me having to do anything.

I like the fact that the GR III can be configured to be woken up by the phone from off. This means you can browse the camera photos from your phone while the camera is in your bag. You can also place the camera somewhere and use the phone to wake it up into remote shooting mode. All these settings are off by default and can be switched on one by one.

So I don't know exactly what you imagine by tight integration between camera and smartphone, but this is what Ricoh has already achieved on the GR III, so I imagine it will be part of the K-new.

I realize that Astrotracer is different and if it is not in the camera itself, it will require the external adapter.
09-06-2020, 02:17 AM - 1 Like   #240
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 13,039
QuoteOriginally posted by Flubber Quote
You could be right - none of us know for sure, of course. But we may simply read these articles differently. This is just my interpretation. They seem (keyword: seem) to have been putting the most r&d into the viewfinder, probably in an attempt to distinguish themselves from other brands. Coming up with lots of options to make viewfinder usage less likely seems self-defeating to me, because then you're going to be like most other cameras out there, and many won't be using the very thing you've put so many resources into. Many people have commented that they don't care about saving a few mm's, but if Pentax were seriously worried about the market that wants flipscreens, don't you think they would have mentioned the app in the latest article, instead of simply justifying what the camera won't do?

Admittedly, I am no tech wizard, so this question may be naive: but couldn't the wifi/bluetooth connection simply be for transferring photos, like you see on other cameras?

A few days ago people were seeing flippyscreens where there were none. Now they might be seeing apps where there are none.

I don't agree that there's "no reason not to". If you want to encourage viewfinder shooting, that's a reason. Whether you agree with the reason or think it's a good one, that's another discussion entirely.

---------- Post added 09-06-20 at 12:10 AM ----------

With that said, I have no problem with them incorporating phone controls, if they have. I'm just hoping they will announce the specs soon, so that we don't have to speculate anymore.
Your theory is basically that they'd downgrade functionality already existing in other cameras - including, as JPT pointed out, the GR III. In a flagship. For no other reason than to force you to use the viewfinder, regardless if that's an option or not.
Pentax doesn't do that.

No, I do not think they would have mentioned the Image Sync application. It simply isn't that important, and definitely isn't new. The viewfinder, OTOH, is very much new.

I'm not seeing apps where there are none, and I resent such an accusation. You should know I only saw a fixed screen since the first prototype, and often argued with those seeing notches and other hallucinations.
As for the app, it is there, I have it installed on my smartphone. It's called Image Sync. They will likely add support for Image Transmitter 2 (the wired tethering app) and for the Photoshop tethering plug-in, too - as the KP is supported.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
angle, aps-c, battery, camera, crop, design, development series, flagship, grip, jazz, k-new, latex, lcd, opera, ovf, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, people, photos, post, product stories, ricoh, screen, size, thickness, tilt, viewfinder
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Admit Your Worst Camera Abuse - Stories and Pics Snapppy General Photography 78 09-21-2020 02:24 PM
IQ of FF vs APS-C primes on APS-C bodies lightbox Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 26 11-10-2016 06:50 PM
When is an APS-C lens not really an APS-C? lightbox Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 17 03-27-2015 07:45 PM
Weekly Challenge #86: Stories... Winners d.bradley Weekly Photo Challenges 12 02-01-2009 11:48 AM
KX mishap, and other horror stories Stevopedia Photographic Technique 11 11-27-2008 07:47 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:14 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top