[ThorSanchez]

Yup, and then the whole mess ends up in the back of a closet because their cell phone takes just as good a picture.
A few years after that, it gets given to the kids because they are interested in learning photography, thereby blocking a sale of new equipment. Said kids get bored because this stuff actually is work, and the kit ends up in the back of another closet to start the cycle all over again.

Then what is the entry into photography today? Or is your point that there isn't one? When the old and soon-to-be-old die off all that's left is phones?

[BigMackCam]

The market as a whole buys a D3500 or a Rebel and then it's a toss-up between a 1-lens and a 2-lens kit

To support that, when shopping for *ist DL and K10D (or Samsung GX-1L and GX-10) bodies online - as I've done on several occasions in the last two or three years - I find they often come with the 18-55 and 50-200, or just the 18-55. Those that come with one or both kit lenses are often in excellent condition and with very low shutter counts. Clearly a lot of folks bought these DSLRs thinking they'd take great photos, soon realised it wasn't as easy as they expected, then stored their kits at the back of cupboards or under the bed before finally selling them on eBay a decade (or more) later. I own four first gen Samsung 18-55 and two 50-200 (or it might be three... I forget) as a result of acquiring these little-used kits

[Wheatfield]

Then what is the entry into photography today? Or is your point that there isn't one? When the old and soon-to-be-old die off all that's left is phones?

Entry level now is the camera that came with your phone. A few years ago cell phones went after and killed the compact market. Now they have improved enough that they are going after the consumer who would buy a bridge camera or low end SLR such as a Rebel.
Where does this leave the person who actually wants to take up photography with a dedicated camera?
They can buy used, there are lots of cameras in the back of closets that are gathering dust, or they can still choose a new entry level camera, though I predict not for much longer, or they can jump straight into the mid range.
As cell phones continue to get upgraded cameras, new buyers are going to see less and less reason to buy dedicated cameras, especially given that most pictures are viewed on cell phone screens, which are really not the best media for quality.
It all comes down to good enough, something that has always plagued photography.
People will always choose convenience over quality. Its why large format wet plates gave way to dry sheets, which gave way to the various 2 1/4" roll films, which were superceded by 35mm.
Its why manual exposure became a rump exposure method when automatic exposure came along, and its why manual focus went away when auto focus became possible.
Every time convenience comes along at the expense of quality, convenience will win out.
Every single time.

[LeeRunge]

Entry level now is the camera that came with your phone. A few years ago cell phones went after and killed the compact market. Now they have improved enough that they are going after the consumer who would buy a bridge camera or low end SLR such as a Rebel.
Where does this leave the person who actually wants to take up photography with a dedicated camera?
They can buy used, there are lots of cameras in the back of closets that are gathering dust, or they can still choose a new entry level camera, though I predict not for much longer, or they can jump straight into the mid range.
As cell phones continue to get upgraded cameras, new buyers are going to see less and less reason to buy dedicated cameras, especially given that most pictures are viewed on cell phone screens, which are really not the best media for quality.
It all comes down to good enough, something that has always plagued photography.
People will always choose convenience over quality. Its why large format wet plates gave way to dry sheets, which gave way to the various 2 1/4" roll films, which were superceded by 35mm.
Its why manual exposure became a rump exposure method when automatic exposure came along, and its why manual focus went away when auto focus became possible.
Every time convenience comes along at the expense of quality, convenience will win out.
Every single time.

I’m about to pick up a Iphone 12 pro max to replace my 3 year old 8 plus. The 8 Plus is ok for a camera, similar to a typical point and shoot with an improvement in highlights and shadows due to the HDR methods used. The 12 (And 11 before it) look like a substantial upgrade. I’m not buying this for the camera though, I use my phone (or ipad) for 90% of photo editing now with lightroom mobile and an sd card reader. The 12 pro max kind of splits the difference in size and it’s processor is quite fast.

Anyway I’m curious to try it out in various conditions and see if anyone can even tell the difference amongst normal people. I expect they won’t. That’s why cell phones are by far the dominant camera. On small screens where nearly everything is viewed the images look pretty good. On my 12.9” ipad (which has a 2732x2048 screen @ 5.8 MP) you can see the quality drop pretty easily compared to a APS-C or FF. But most are just looking at images via instagram which is only 2 megapixel or as texts on the phone. Maybe a few on tablets or iPads, very few on a desktop with a high resolution monitor.

One thing I’m highly curious about is the 8k televisions for photography (33 megapixel display). I actually feel like a Samsung frame (currently 4k) wall mounted in 8k would be stunning with modern DSLR or Mirrorless images. I’d imaging a nearly 1:1 scale image from a K-1 on a 65+ inch wall mounted display would be jaw dropping at a 4 foot viewing distance. But that’s just a niche in the end.

[clackers]

I have but probably didn't post the outcome here.

2019 calendar year compared to 2018.

I'm applauding standing for this Mistral. You're very thorough and you attempt what so-called 'journalists' at camera websites should be doing!

[Mistral75]

I'm applauding standing for this Mistral. You're very thorough and you attempt what so-called 'journalists' at camera websites should be doing!

Thank you kind sir!

[clackers]

CIPA data distinguishing between ILCs and compact cameras go back to 1977. The years during which ILC shipments reported by CIPA were comprised between 4 and 5 million units are the following: 1977-1978 ...

Interesting. And of course, the world's population has nearly doubled since 1977.

[rod_grant]

Don't be too quick with your thanks, Mistral; he only said that it was a standing ovation, from where I sit I could neither hear the ovation, or see him standing.

[bobmaxja]

100% I just watched someone do that with a 24? MP Nikon D5000-something last year. They thought it would give them Instagram pictures in auto mode like they see all day long scrolling, yet their smartphone looked better. I tried to explain that your smartphone will look better unless you learn to post process, which is why all those instagram photo’s look like that. At that instant they realized “o thats a lot of work” and “a lot of learning” and into the closet went D5000-something. Even though that camera actually has a very nice sensor in it comparable to the K-3, but you have to have the will and the drive to learn the skills to extract that capability from the camera.

Hence 95% of images are from a smartphone. This is also why Nikon is in a free fall, most of those purchases were D3000/5000s. They’ll either starve to death or reorganize into a much smaller scale FF camera company.

.

Bingo, phone camera are so good now that it do the job 99% of the time. Peoples are happy to take photos, show photos and received ten of Kudos.

[Katfsh]

I am sold on the grip alone!!!! I already love the grip witch is why i will never leave pentax...And now it is even BETTER!!! I have already made up my mind!!!! How much is 200,000 yen in california?

---------- Post added 11-11-20 at 09:50 PM ----------

I enjoy the whole process of picture taking right down to how good the camera feels in my hand witch only Pentax can satisfy......A cell phone could never do it for me no matter how good the pics are

---------- Post added 11-11-20 at 09:55 PM ----------

And I am quite surprised of how little I here people talk of how great the ergonomics are for at least the K-3 and K-1 11........

[luftfluss]

And I am quite surprised of how little I here people talk of how great the ergonomics are for at least the K-3 and K-1 11........

Since we all use Pentax here, we all know already how good the ergonomics are Sometimes we do hear from folks who have moved on from Pentax that they miss the handling and feel, compared with their new gear.

[Serkevan]

Yeah, talking about ergonomics or control layout here is just preaching to the choir, we're all converts
I do mention the INFO menu from time to time, because I don't remember the last time I had to do a menu dive.

[Lord Lucan]

when shopping for *ist DL and K10D .... online - as I've done on several occasions in the last two or three years - I find they often come with the 18-55 and 50-200, or just the 18-55. Those that come with one or both kit lenses are often in excellent condition .... Clearly a lot of folks bought these DSLRs thinking they'd take great photos, soon realised it wasn't as easy as they expected

That is equivalent to the film era when people bought an ME Super or MV with a 50mm lens and later possibly added a 70-200mm zoom and a simple flash unit (most likely Vivitar or Miranda - cheaper than Pentax ). You can see those outfits today on Ebay, with a nice cary case, often well cared for (or little used, depending how you look at it). I find it a bit sad looking at those outfits offered for peanuts that no-one really wants now - not the (probably deceased) owners' heirs anyway.

[someasiancameraguy]

Yeah, talking about ergonomics or control layout here is just preaching to the choir, we're all converts
I do mention the INFO menu from time to time, because I don't remember the last time I had to do a menu dive.

One of the best and most underrated things about Pentax.

[repaap]

Yeah, talking about ergonomics or control layout here is just preaching to the choir, we're all converts
I do mention the INFO menu from time to time, because I don't remember the last time I had to do a menu dive.

My friend wanted me to teach how to use her Nikon, because I could take so good photos. I said, let me have a look. I some how thought that it would be even remotely similar, one way or another. It was. After 45 minutes I could find something similar. And made the adjustment. She asked where I did find this. It too me 25 minutes to get back, where I went before. This is even if I’d have to go and make changes in my Pentax menu system. It is easy. Having that super easy info button does make it even more so.