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12-16-2020, 09:37 AM - 1 Like   #1456
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QuoteOriginally posted by SunnyG. Quote
Also the k-1 mk2 smears details of the low light pics with their new accelerator unit.
That's not true.

12-16-2020, 09:37 AM - 3 Likes   #1457
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Is this just people with small noses or any size nose?

I own a K-1 and K-1 II and I don't think it is a big difference. If I am shooting landscapes I use low iso and the accelerator isn't doing anything. If I am shooting at iso 6400, I have less work to do after the fact because of the accelerator on the K-1 II, but it isn't the end of the world to do my own noise reduction in post. Either way, they are iso 6400 images and so much of the "detail" is actually noise.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Equating noise with detail and then complaining that detail is lost when that noise is removed is disingenuous.
12-16-2020, 09:40 AM   #1458
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QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
But then:
  • Dark live view
  • Dark image replay
  • With metering, starting at ISO 100, it's limited to ISO 3200 equivalent maximum, or ISO 800 if you need to underexpose two stops because of highlights in your scene
  • Even starting at ISO 400, it's still limited to ISO 3200 if underexposing two stops to protect highlights
Not really a solution, is it?
It is a solution if you work with 'raw' files and you ignore the 'jpg' files.
I am familiar with the work {on another site} of a guy who uses "exposure to the right" -
he is so familiar with the output of his camera that he takes what seem to be badly "over exposed" images, then massages the resulting 'raw' files.
You could do the same such thing if you wanted to do all your work with 'raw' files - and I don't see any reason to limit the amount of exposure adjustment, no reason to limit to "ISO3200".
12-16-2020, 09:42 AM - 1 Like   #1459
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Obviously, because you're oversimplifying in order to make it appear an optional feature.
The image accelerator unit is an integral part of the image processing pipeline. Partially disabling a processing stage might not be trivial, nor desired.
Simply put, if you could somehow "disable the K-1 II's accelerator NR" you will not get a K-1.
Oh, and the diffraction, lateral CA, distortion correction and the two existing NR modes are somehow super duper different? I don't buy it, sorry. "Can't be done" is a loser's statement. To be an argument, it would have to have a reason, but that is so far lacking in the entire discussion about the Accelerator Unit. People just assume that, "oh it can't be bypassed" without any rational basis for that belief. It's a belief, nothing more.

There is nothing in electronics that can't be bypassed. A bypass can always be engineered. Prove me wrong.

---------- Post added 12-16-20 at 09:44 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
It is a solution if you work with 'raw' files and you ignore the 'jpg' files.
I am familiar with the work {on another site} of a guy who uses "exposure to the right" -
he is so familiar with the output of his camera that he takes what seem to be badly "over exposed" images, then massages the resulting 'raw' files.
You could do the same such thing if you wanted to do all your work with 'raw' files - and I don't see any reason to limit the amount of exposure adjustment, no reason to limit to "ISO3200".
Unless something has recently changed, that is actually the maximum you can underexpose with metering - five stops. ISO 100 underexposed five stops gives you the equivalent of ISO 3200.

12-16-2020, 09:44 AM - 1 Like   #1460
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QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
There is nothing in electronics that can't be bypassed. A bypass can always be engineered. Prove me wrong.
The Pentax engineers say it cannot be done. That is good enough for me.
If it is not good enough for you, I guess you'll have to choose the work of other engineers.
12-16-2020, 09:47 AM   #1461
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QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
Unless something has recently changed, that is actually the maximum you can underexpose with metering - five stops. That gives you the equivalent of ISO 3200.
Use a hand meter, then photograph using 'M' mode.
If you are not going to use the 'accelerator', why use other forms of automation?
12-16-2020, 09:47 AM - 2 Likes   #1462
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
All interesting and fair points. But! If you go to e.g. dpreview (only because the shooting parameters are comparably chosen) and compare the KP at ISO 800 with any of its competitors you will notice that in most cases you have more details, despite less noise. Same with K-1II.

All this advantages would also be gone if you change anything in the photographing workflow. Another camera/sensor with same MP? You probably loose detail.

I think the flaw in this thinking is that it is seen as an "optional" step that could be surpassed. But, I am pretty sure in that, this signal processing is here to stay and if it would not have to be done by this hardwarechip the signal processing of higher ISO would have to go some extra rounds with an alternative algorithm, that would not be able to retain any more detail, but just keep some more noise, as others do.
By the way, the others do follow anyway: Canon R6 review Cons: "Non-optional noise reduction applied to Raws" Canon EOS R6 Review: not the hybrid king, but a great photographers' camera: Digital Photography Review

There was not much ado about that, was it?

Look. The problem arose by a completely distorted assesment by dpreview. They could have said: The K-1II offers a dedicated accelerator unit for image processing that helps to deal with noise in higher ISO. We saw what it was capable of already in the KP, which we attested great high ISO noise handling, punching way above its class for the sensor size. The K-1 II seems to follow this, if we compare it to other FF sensors it shows visibly less noise while still retaining more details than the competition. It might come for a price, that future external algorithms might not be optimised for this processed RAWs, but this would have to be empirically determined. We are sure the other manufacturers will follow here, as we expected processed RAWs will be also implemented in the future Canon R6.
It's not just the R6. I just picked up a Z5 and it also ads noise reduction to RAW. This is where everyone's going Pentax was just early. The extreme end of this is the ProRaw DNG's that the iPhone 12 creates with computational stuff baked into the RAW. I have an iPhone 12 pro max and it's shocking how good it is in conditions that used to be the domain of full frame cameras. It actually outperforms any of my large sensor cameras handheld in extreme low light situations for still subjects. You can't beat it without using a tripod. It'll take shots handheld that my K-3 which is rated -3 EV can't even find focus in, and they'll look like a long exposure of 10+ seconds with a tripod. And now it does this with RAW files storing all the best information the algorithms can mine from multiple exposures and leaving you with an optimized RAW to manipulate to your taste.

No drama over this that I've seen with the R6 or Z5.

12-16-2020, 09:50 AM   #1463
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The Pentax engineers say it cannot be done.
Source?
12-16-2020, 09:51 AM - 3 Likes   #1464
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
It's a pity this thread has devolved into yet another argument about the accelerator.
Yeah, I'm out. There's never an end to this thing and the discussion will just, going by historical precedent, accelerate the closure of the thread
12-16-2020, 09:52 AM   #1465
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
It's not just the R6. I just picked up a Z5 and it also ads noise reduction to RAW. This is where everyone's going Pentax was just early. The extreme end of this is the ProRaw DNG's that the iPhone 12 creates with computational stuff baked into the RAW. I have an iPhone 12 pro max and it's shocking how good it is in conditions that used to be the domain of full frame cameras. It actually outperforms any of my large sensor cameras handheld in extreme low light situations for still subjects. You can't beat it without using a tripod. It'll take shots handheld that my K-3 which is rated -3 EV can't even find focus in, and they'll look like a long exposure of 10+ seconds with a tripod. And now it does this with RAW files storing all the best information the algorithms can mine from multiple exposures and leaving you with an optimized RAW to manipulate to your taste.

No drama over this that I've seen with the R6 or Z5.
DxO will cater for Canon, Nikon and Sony. But they won't even cater for Fujifilm, so it's pretty obvious they won't for Pentax, either. Pentax needs the off switch more than anybody else.
12-16-2020, 09:52 AM   #1466
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QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
Oh, and the diffraction, lateral CA, distortion correction and the two existing NR modes are somehow super duper different? I don't buy it, sorry. "Can't be done" is a loser's statement.
I am giving an engineer's answer.

If you are going to use Raw Therapee to manually replace the work of the 'accelerator', also use it {or other software} to replace lateral CA, distortion correction, etc.

I fully use the automated developing provided by Pentax engineers, just as I used the automated developing of Kodachrome developing.
I shoot knowing how that developing will affect the photos delivered to me.
12-16-2020, 09:53 AM   #1467
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QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
Oh, and the diffraction, lateral CA, distortion correction and the two existing NR modes are somehow super duper different? I don't buy it, sorry. "Can't be done" is a loser's statement. To be an argument, it would have to have a reason, but that is so far lacking in the entire discussion about the Accelerator Unit. People just assume that, "oh it can't be bypassed" without any rational basis for that belief. It's a belief, nothing more.

There is nothing in electronics that can't be bypassed. A bypass can always be engineered. Prove me wrong.
Since I never said "it can't be done", there's no need for me to fight your strawman.
I said "might not be trivial, nor desired".

And yeah, it's different from the JPEG-only corrections - it's done on the flight, as the data is transferred from the sensor.
12-16-2020, 09:53 AM   #1468
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
It's not just the R6. I just picked up a Z5 and it also ads noise reduction to RAW.
That's disappointing. Can't you disable the High ISO NR in the menu settings on the Z5? I know you can on the D750.
12-16-2020, 09:54 AM - 2 Likes   #1469
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QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
Oh, and the diffraction, lateral CA, distortion correction and the two existing NR modes are somehow super duper different? I don't buy it, sorry. "Can't be done" is a loser's statement. To be an argument, it would have to have a reason, but that is so far lacking in the entire discussion about the Accelerator Unit. People just assume that, "oh it can't be bypassed" without any rational basis for that belief. It's a belief, nothing more.

There is nothing in electronics that can't be bypassed. A bypass can always be engineered. Prove me wrong.
Try bypassing the power supply, or the A/D converter, or the signal amplifier. You could, potentially, but it's not going to look pretty.
12-16-2020, 09:54 AM   #1470
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QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
Source?
They said that as part of their PF interview at 2019 CP+.
{you can look for it - I won't bother}
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