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10-27-2020, 07:43 PM - 1 Like   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
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I'm actually surprised that after an initial surge of negativity, there has been an uptick in the positive commentary.

10-27-2020, 07:44 PM - 2 Likes   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
But if they have a flagship sized bank account, why would they go with Pentax specifically when it's missing a modern 16-50mm f/2.8, 35mm f/1.8, 50mm f/1.8, and 85mm f/1.8 crop designs? standard/traditional stuff.


Not picking a battle with you, but thinking this outside of entrenched brand circles. If you were looking for a DSLR crop system, what do you think would be the benefits for you to going with this Pentax and those zooms versus Canon and their zooms or Nikon and their zoom catalogs? Or really the fact that both Canon and Nikon have fairly solid prime lens catalogs too. And they all still make crop DSLRs and already have a deep line of established OEM and 3rd party modern lenses.

The point being, Ricoh is going to have to sell the system, not just the body if they want new money. And doing that is going to require more cash outlay on Ricoh's part imo to convince others the waters are fine. That lens roadmap is enticing but their rate of release is remarkably slow. And there isn't much on it in terms of crop system.


OTOH Canon and Nikon have a different issue. Their systems are, comparatively, much more up to date on the crop side but they have to convince buyers that the system will continue to be supported. I think the advantage is to them over Pentax right now.

Over time, that may change, provided Canon and Nikon actually do exit crop DSLR. But I think Ricoh/Pentax have an uphill battle right now to convince buyers their system is the system to 'invest' in over the long term.
I think you're right that Ricoh is going to push a bit harder to make this a success. I think they know it as well with the 16-50 mk2 that's in the wings somewhere. And Pentax has the FA 31 and DA 35 Ltd both which are nothing to sneeze at. The FA 77 seems like a wonderful lens but I do think something like Tamron's 85mm f1.8 would be nice but probably not where I'd focus right now with the other options that Pentax already has.

They generally have the glass to support a new APS-C flagship in 2020 (although I still think a mid-20's fast-ish prime is missing, and I don't mean the FF 21mm) but they don't have the marketing which is a whole lot of different things these days.


You wrote that "Canon has a lot of really nice pancakes" and I can think of the 24mm STM and 40mm STM and that's it. What else do they offer? Pentax has the 21, the 40's, the 43, and the 70. Who's touching that?
10-27-2020, 08:05 PM - 5 Likes   #228
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I'm going to buck the trend here and say ... I don't have an issue with Ricoh's marketing effort on this one, not at all.

Fact is, I already have a nice collection of K mount glass that I know well. From film era lenses in various conditions, some limiteds, and a set of DA* monsters in well-maintained condition.

Looking at buying a K3-iii is a no brainer .. There is literally nothing else on the market from any other camera maker that brings some of that latest tech goodness to my existing K glass collection. That is the market that this camera is perfect for.

Well, I guess could throw some adapter on a mirrorless box and "get some use" out of those lenses, but that's not the same at all as putting that glass on a K-mount SLR with an optical viewfinder, and all the usual controls in the usual places. That is what that glass is made for, and I already know exactly how each of those lenses behaves when used just like that.

I can buy a K3-iii, unbox it, and within 10 minutes be shooting it at my best. Any other competing purchases would mean - adapting the glass, or getting new glass, and then burning a lot of time getting that intimacy and knowledge back from scratch. I dont need that in my life really. Happy to learn new things, but dont see much point in re-learning what I already know for not much real gain.

So TL;DR - Ricoh doesnt need to say much, and certainly doesnt need to spend any $$ to acquire me as a customer for this new camera body. Ill just get one - when Im ready. Its a done deal.

The only thing that will change my mind (about upgrading my K3 to a K3-iii) ... is if I go on YouTube one day, and see all the "popular experts" putting out ridiculous videos about "Why Im quitting <sony / fuji / nikon / canon> for the New Pentax". urgh !! I might still get one, but Ill definitely be covering the logos with black tape if that garbage starts up
10-27-2020, 08:06 PM - 3 Likes   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I reckon a great flagship setup for a guy or girl with a flagship sized credit card would be:

K-3 III
DA*11-18
DA*20-40 Limited
DA*55
DA 70-210
DA 150-450
I'll just have to make due with a Sigma 10-20, FA 50 1.7, DA 18-135 & D FA 150-450...

10-27-2020, 08:18 PM - 1 Like   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
I'll just have to make due with a Sigma 10-20, FA 50 1.7, DA 18-135 & D FA 150-450...
Yep, that's going to be tough!!!
10-27-2020, 08:24 PM - 1 Like   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
I think you're right that Ricoh is going to push a bit harder to make this a success. I think they know it as well with the 16-50 mk2 that's in the wings somewhere. And Pentax has the FA 31 and DA 35 Ltd both which are nothing to sneeze at. The FA 77 seems like a wonderful lens but I do think something like Tamron's 85mm f1.8 would be nice but probably not where I'd focus right now with the other options that Pentax already has.

They generally have the glass to support a new APS-C flagship in 2020 (although I still think a mid-20's fast-ish prime is missing, and I don't mean the FF 21mm) but they don't have the marketing which is a whole lot of different things these days.


You wrote that "Canon has a lot of really nice pancakes" and I can think of the 24mm STM and 40mm STM and that's it. What else do they offer? Pentax has the 21, the 40's, the 43, and the 70. Who's touching that?
Every single one of the primes you listed for Pentax are screwdrive. That's a non-starter, despite the optical performance. They need a repackage with an in lens motor to be more attractive imo to a broader market.

Canon has 24mm, 40mm STM as true pancakes. And 35mm macro, 50mm, and a 60mm STM for DSLR which are still quite small. There are also 22 and the 28mm STM designs, but those are EF-M though.

If Canon can design those to be as small as they are with an in lens quiet, fast, accurate motor then Ricoh should be doing something too. Maybe not that small but the standard DA zooms today desperately need repackaging. There's no excuse to be offering what they're offering on the DA side today in 2020 and consider it acceptable imo.


I'm ok with Ltds having their own... charm. But the DA series need a refresh.


If you pick up a Canon or Nikon DSLR with their nifty 50s (or 35mm's) you notice one thing -- they're (relatively) quiet and punchy/fast to focus. You pick up a Pentax with a DA 35mm f/2.4 or 50mm f/1.8 and here that obnoxiously loud zip zip, it's not appealing in a lot of photographic settings.

I think they know it too as none of their new lenses over the past 3 years have used it. Outside of that 35mm f/2 rehash, but I'm not counting that.

I think if they repackaged the DA 35 f/2.4 and 50mm f/1.8 or just launched new designs with motors and sealing, they'd have a better look when comparing brands. Throw in a DA 20 or 24mm too and it would been a boon too imo.

The Tamron f/1.8 primes are really nice, but maybe a bit big for crop? That said, if Ricoh launched all 3 in K mount it would be great for both crop and ff platforms. Sigma and Tamron both have designs that could work for K if they were licensed.


All the pieces are there for Ricoh, they just need to put them together and work some polish/details imo. Right now the system seems an odd mixture of super modern and really old cobbled together in a piecemeal fashion. If you're in Pentax today then you probably don't mind so much. But if you're outside and looking in, looking at different systems, I'm not sure that's also the case.

At least, I know it would give me serious pause. I still think they have work to do.
10-27-2020, 08:26 PM - 1 Like   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobG Quote
In one of the previous videos, they said that they had improved the image quality even at low ISO. I'm hopeful that there will be improved image quality and lower noise until a bit higher than ISO 1600 which is probably the useful limit for the K3. The low ISO image quality of the K3 is great, so if the K3iii improves on it, I'll be happy! It's probably improved AF which I'm looking forward to the most, however.
A DR boost would be fantastic at low ISO.

If it’s the same sensor as the Fuji XT-4 but with Pentax adding there own twist too it it should do well.

10-27-2020, 08:34 PM - 2 Likes   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
That said, one thing I hope Ricoh does is spend some money on refreshing the crop lens catalog. Nothing in the retail catalog should be using screwdrive and nothing over 500 dollars should be without weather sealing of some variety imo. They don't even have to change the optical formulas, just redesign a housing for them and use a more quiet and precise AF drive system.
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I reckon a great flagship setup for a guy or girl with a flagship sized credit card would be:
K-3 III
DA*11-18
DA*20-40 Limited
DA*55
DA 70-210
DA 150-450
New lenses would be nice - especially KAF4 lenses to replace noisy screwdive ones - but an advantage of staying within a class {getting a new 'flagship' "APS-C" body to replace an existing 'flagship' "APS-C" body} is that the old lens collection should be adequate {and require much less money} for now.
10-27-2020, 08:46 PM - 2 Likes   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Every single one of the primes you listed for Pentax are screwdrive. That's a non-starter, despite the optical performance. They need a repackage with an in lens motor to be more attractive imo to a broader market.

Canon has 24mm, 40mm STM as true pancakes. And 35mm macro, 50mm, and a 60mm STM for DSLR which are still quite small. There are also 22 and the 28mm STM designs, but those are EF-M though.

If Canon can design those to be as small as they are with an in lens quiet, fast, accurate motor then Ricoh should be doing something too. Maybe not that small but the standard DA zooms today desperately need repackaging. There's no excuse to be offering what they're offering on the DA side today in 2020 and consider it acceptable imo.


I'm ok with Ltds having their own... charm. But the DA series need a refresh.


If you pick up a Canon or Nikon DSLR with their nifty 50s (or 35mm's) you notice one thing -- they're (relatively) quiet and punchy/fast to focus. You pick up a Pentax with a DA 35mm f/2.4 or 50mm f/1.8 and here that obnoxiously loud zip zip, it's not appealing in a lot of photographic settings.

I think they know it too as none of their new lenses over the past 3 years have used it. Outside of that 35mm f/2 rehash, but I'm not counting that.

I think if they repackaged the DA 35 f/2.4 and 50mm f/1.8 or just launched new designs with motors and sealing, they'd have a better look when comparing brands. Throw in a DA 20 or 24mm too and it would been a boon too imo.

The Tamron f/1.8 primes are really nice, but maybe a bit big for crop? That said, if Ricoh launched all 3 in K mount it would be great for both crop and ff platforms. Sigma and Tamron both have designs that could work for K if they were licensed.


All the pieces are there for Ricoh, they just need to put them together and work some polish/details imo. Right now the system seems an odd mixture of super modern and really old cobbled together in a piecemeal fashion. If you're in Pentax today then you probably don't mind so much. But if you're outside and looking in, looking at different systems, I'm not sure that's also the case.

At least, I know it would give me serious pause. I still think they have work to do.
Mee,

I’m with you regarding a refresh on the lenses. I have the 50mm 1.8 for Pentax and for Nikon. The Nikon is fast and quiet while the Pentax is zip zip sounding with the screw drive. Not many people like that.

Being I have multiple systems in use I’m not brand loyal other than I’d rather use my lenses with a body that’s good enough then spend a ton building new systems any more than I already have. What drew me to Pentax a decade ago was a more complete system of APS-C with weather sealing and IBIS. Nikon and Canon at the time seemed to cripple hammer everything APS-C to protect the Full Frame lineup and use it as a gateway to upgrade. Pentax was all in with the kitchen sink of features on the APS-C lineup they had.

Fast forward to now and Fuji exists with a killer lineup of primes and AF, weather sealing and better IBIS. If i were new to market for APS-C that’s where I’d look. Or for the same price just go full frame. The A7Rii is like 1400 dollars right now. Tamron sells really good primes for it for like 300 a piece, a steal in 20, 35 and some inexpensive but great 85mm exist in other makes. I’m tempted. That camera demands top level resolution to get the most from that 42mp sensor though.

Honestly Pentax would be a really tough sell in it’s current state in comparison. Sony and Fuji lead mirrorless IMO and Nikon/Canon still have a strong lineup of DSLR gear in full frame for the same price as Pentax APS-C.

I have 7 Pentax lenses so I’m what Pentax is after, as are all of us here to sell the K3 iii. But a new buyer?


They need fast motors in glass. They need a 150-600 to go with that K3 iii. 150-450 doesn’t cut it compared to the other options in the other brands.

If they do that it would be much more attractive. Sony is very strong though and selling Full Frame for pretty competitive prices, are weather sealed, better IBIS than pentax, way beyond in AF, pixel shift etc. They’re banking on Canon and Nikon exiting DSLR for mirrorless and leaving behind customers who want to still shoot with a optical viewfinder. I doubt the exit for Canon and Nikon will be fast, likely a decade with the user base having tons of glass and mirrorless not being “better” in image quality or AF in any giant leap from something like a D780 or 850.

The problem with going for nostalgic “character” in shooting is Fuji exists and it just better at that. I have an X100s, it’s tactile bliss for shooting. The Xpro 3 offers amazing primes and an optical/EVF so you get the best of both worlds with IBIS and weather sealing. Fuji is just better at that game.

Last edited by LeeRunge; 10-27-2020 at 08:55 PM.
10-27-2020, 08:49 PM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
New lenses would be nice - especially KAF4 lenses to replace noisy screwdive ones - but an advantage of staying within a class {getting a new 'flagship' "APS-C" body to replace an existing 'flagship' "APS-C" body} is that the old lens collection should be adequate {and require much less money} for now.
I'm not sure it is, unless you're already a Pentax shooter who is looking to just replace the body. For those people, no question they'll enjoy the body upgrade. My discussion wasn't oriented towards those people though, since they're a given. The K-3 III seems like a no-brainer upgrade for these folks.


Yet if Pentax is going to compete as the de facto DSLR brand in the future, they need to shake off the cobwebs imo and start acting like one across the board. Not expecting massive rollouts like the other guys. But I hope they have more on tap than this body and an updated 16-50mm over the next few years for the crop side.


Otherwise, I'll say it again, why go with Pentax when comparing all brands? Ricoh is listing subjectives based on emotion as some of their reasons. But do many people buy technical gear simply on emotion? I know I don't.


Canon 90D is fresh and the lens catalog over in EF/EF-S is fresh(er than K's lineup on the whole atm). D7500 and D500 are still relatively fresh too with a solid F lens catalog. Those aren't going away in the next 3-5 years. I just hope there's more on the plate, mid to long term for K crop than these things. And the DA crop series is a great place to start imo.
10-27-2020, 08:58 PM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote


Otherwise, I'll say it again, why go with Pentax when comparing all brands? Ricoh is listing subjectives based on emotion as some of their reasons. But do many people buy technical gear simply on emotion? I know I don't.


The problem with selling emotion is when a perspective buyer picks up a Fuji. Those things are bliss for nostalgia shooting. The Xpro 3 and X100 series in particular.
10-27-2020, 08:59 PM - 1 Like   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Otherwise, I'll say it again, why go with Pentax when comparing all brands? Ricoh is listing subjectives based on emotion as some of their reasons. But do many people buy technical gear simply on emotion? I know I don't..
I think some people do. There seems to be a bunch of different types of photographers and some are clearly in the "collector" zone where they like a certain brand, root for it against other brands, and like being part of some kind of "team". Personally, I'm not like that either. I just buy what gets the job done, and I get different brands for different uses if that is the optimal solution in my mind. I don't have much emotion for the "process" either, like if a camera "feels" a certain way. I just use gear like tools, and whatever the best end result is best for me.
10-27-2020, 09:08 PM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by automorphism Quote
I think some people do. There seems to be a bunch of different types of photographers and some are clearly in the "collector" zone where they like a certain brand, root for it against other brands, and like being part of some kind of "team". Personally, I'm not like that either. I just buy what gets the job done, and I get different brands for different uses if that is the optimal solution in my mind. I don't have much emotion for the "process" either, like if a camera "feels" a certain way. I just use gear like tools, and whatever the best end result is best for me.
Pentax is a great brand for collectors of older glass for sure. And the owners are pretty loyal.

The only brand that stirs me up with nostalgia of film shooting from being a kid through to college is Fuji. Those dials get me and how the Xpro even has the viewfinder lcd flipped with a little film LCD to keep the camera as mechanical feeling as possible. I freaking love that lol.
10-27-2020, 09:46 PM - 1 Like   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Esp with the premium prices these days....
If you think Pentax prices are premium (or Canon, Nikon, Sony for that matter) go price some Leica L mount lenses. Just saying...
10-27-2020, 10:15 PM - 3 Likes   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
I think you're right that Ricoh is going to push a bit harder to make this a success. I think they know it as well with the 16-50 mk2 that's in the wings somewhere. And Pentax has the FA 31 and DA 35 Ltd both which are nothing to sneeze at. The FA 77 seems like a wonderful lens but I do think something like Tamron's 85mm f1.8 would be nice but probably not where I'd focus right now with the other options that Pentax already has.

They generally have the glass to support a new APS-C flagship in 2020 (although I still think a mid-20's fast-ish prime is missing, and I don't mean the FF 21mm) but they don't have the marketing which is a whole lot of different things these days.

You wrote that "Canon has a lot of really nice pancakes" and I can think of the 24mm STM and 40mm STM and that's it. What else do they offer? Pentax has the 21, the 40's, the 43, and the 70. Who's touching that?
It's hard to argue that one of the main advantages of the K mount is the great selection of high IQ glass in small durable packages. This alongside a ridiculously good image processing pipeline extracting the best ISO noise performance, arguably makes the Pentax the most portable package - with weather sealing to boot - and the highest image quality compared to almost any other brand. I frankly don't understand why some companies build their mirrorless bodies in the name of weight and then expect us to mount some ginormous F/0.95 - 1.2 20 element prime (Nikon...) essentially destroying the weight and form factor advantages of MILC.

I actually would love to see a Pentax body with decent video precisely for those reasons above. Pentax dominates in high ISO, weather sealing, IBIS, and lightweight high quality durable glass. All of these factors are huge considerations for serious video work. I know its a farfetched dream...
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