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10-28-2020, 07:42 AM   #301
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kuzma Quote
Without any doubts, it will be a pretty nice camera. But... right now all major producers are fighting for mirrorless cameras market and offering some really advanced and affordable products. And at the same time Ricoh announced the APS-C DSLR that they have had to release 3 years ago... Besides, it will cost $1,900! Nikon Z5 is just $1,296 worth. It certainly doesn't look like a promising way to develop a company or at least its camera division. The industry is being changed fast and Ricoh really needs to find its place in that new context.
Nikon is engaging in a rather audacious price offensive with the Z5. But I don't think that's a camera that you can put nails in a wall with, which is the reputation that Pentax flagship bodies have.

I wish Nikon every success with it, but I don't see Nikon as having made enough of an argument for mirrorless with their lens line-up. Go FTZ but completely lose the possibility to do OVF? That's an easy choice from where I'm standing.

No matter how you slice it, as a platform, mirrorless has only one advantage that you cannot get some other way, and that's short flange distance, and if you're not leveraging that, then...

---------- Post added 10-28-20 at 07:46 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by someasiancameraguy Quote
If we did an apples to apples comparison of feature set, Leica wouldn't be the company it is today, nor will film photography be experiencing the resurgence it has for the past decade.
Well, you went there, so.. In my opinion, Leica has among the best mirrorless offering out there. Bodies with excellent build quality, priced only a little above the competition. If you skip the Leica lenses and use Sigma instead, you're not paying much extra overall.

As for film photography, I'm not sure where you're going with that.

10-28-2020, 07:49 AM - 4 Likes   #302
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Are you here just to pick a fight?
Fight? no, just pointing out that Pentax has some competition out there and it's a much tougher market.

What would you do if you had no camera gear today and were starting new? If Pentax why? Compared to the other options? That's basically what I'm saying. I'm not trying to start a forum war. I'm saying it's a tough sell these days.

I'm honestly asking the question of what do they offer in 2020 that makes them unique?

I know I'm going to get salem witch trialed and it's close to Halloween but I was asking and observing as to why one would start fresh with Pentax in 2020.
10-28-2020, 07:50 AM - 3 Likes   #303
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QuoteQuote:
It's an exciting inclusion for Pentax users at least.
I don't really listen to folks who claim to know who a camera will appeal to. When the K-P was rolled out, like the K-1, half the new buyers were new to Pentax. Unless you can show me where you predicted that I can't really give much credence to your negative commentary. It might be smarter to admit you have no clue how successful the K-1, K-P and now the K-3iii might be. Every new Pentax seems to bring in new users... why wouldn't this one?

It will, just as previous models did. The fact that some are some are so narrow minded as to think it won't means nothing. Especially given their track records at predicting how previous models would do. There are many factors that go into camera selection. This camera will suit some people. And the funny thing is, if it were the most technologically backwards camera on the planet, it would still suit some people (witness the current sales of 4x5 film cameras) . How many cameras you own from other brands and what you think of them is irrelevant.

Only an anti-Pentax troll would claim differently.

I've never met anyone intelligent who thought they could decide on whether or not they might like a camera from a spec sheet, and it's even less intelligent to think most people think like you and that Pentax' future depends on them doing what you or Fuji or anyone else thinks they should.

My reference for the K-3iii will be early adopters coming from a K-3 who also own a K-1 or K-1ii, because that's where I'm coming from. And until early adopters have them in thier hands, I won't be making any firm decisions. I certainly won't be listening to any K-3 users who have moved on to other brands, and especially mirrorless. By definition, their advice is of no use to me.

That of course won't stop them from talking, to exactly who they might be talking I don't know. I just know it's not me.

Today, I'm looking at the spec sheet thinking, "This camera might have some things to offer." But that's tempered by the fact that my K-3, K-1 combo gives me everything I need. Others are currently in need of some of the specs on the spec sheet. They'll be the ones to tell me how this will go. Until then, clouding my mind with negative posts from the ignorant who have never even held or used the camera, I need to block that stuff out so I'm still clear when real information starts to be released. I wouldn't want to go in with a negative attitude and head full of what every other camera company in the world is doing.

Last edited by normhead; 10-28-2020 at 08:35 AM.
10-28-2020, 07:52 AM   #304
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QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
Nikon is engaging in a rather audacious price offensive with the Z5. But I don't think that's a camera that you can put nails in a wall with, which is the reputation that Pentax flagship bodies have.

I wish Nikon every success with it, but I don't see Nikon as having made enough of an argument for mirrorless with their lens line-up. Go FTZ but completely lose the possibility to do OVF? That's an easy choice from where I'm standing.

No matter how you slice it, as a platform, mirrorless has only one advantage that you cannot get some other way, and that's short flange distance, and if you're not leveraging that, then...
Your logic is assuming most people want a camera body they can strike nails into a wall with and that this is viable for a Pentax body in the first place.


I get his point. There is a lot of competition in the camera market pushing improved tech at a lower price. I think that is why Ricoh's marketing is trying to sell their cameras on emotion -- user experience and the feeling one gets out of using the hardware.


There are already a few autofocus adapters for Z mount to use Nikon F, Canon EF, Sony E, and Leica M lenses. And in the past 2 years that Z has been around, Nikon has released (to store shelves, not a paper launch) 14 Full Frame lenses and 2 Crop. So it isn't like it is seriously hurting for modern lenses.


I think the question is are you into photography to play with the gear or to get the shot? If you gravitate to one side more, the answer will probably lead you to a different outcome based on what you value and why. (arguing over it leads no where)

10-28-2020, 07:53 AM   #305
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QuoteOriginally posted by someasiancameraguy Quote
I'd argue that almost everyone that shoots Pentax will swear that the bodies use a "get the tech out the way" ethos. Pentax ergonomics have always been amazing. As to IQ between APS-C and FF I'd agree the gap has closed, but FF has some advantages that are hard to replicate: such as DOF, high ISO, and typically lower CA/distortion ultrawides to name a few.
Disagree on high ISO - that's exactly the notch that Pentax is chiselling at with the Accelerator Unit.

If you look at image quality at, what do most people stop at, ISO 6400? Look at ISO 6400 with KP vs. full frame options. Especially if you process that with DxO, you get a clean file out of any current option at APS-C or above. Differences are becoming increasingly marginal. In terms of lens design, both sensor sizes have their advantages. I tend to think the future is zoom, and that favours smaller sensors.
10-28-2020, 07:54 AM   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I don't really listen to folks who claim to know who a camera will appeal to. When the K-P was rolled out, like the K-1, half the new buyers were new to Pentax. Unless you can show me where you predicted that I can't really give much credence to your negative commentary. It might be smarter to admit you have no clue how successful the K-1, K-P and now the K-3iii might be. Every new Pentax seems to bring in new users... why wouldn't this one?
Half? You have total sales figures from Ricoh by product type? That would be very interesting to see if you don't mind sharing.
10-28-2020, 07:59 AM - 1 Like   #307
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QuoteOriginally posted by someasiancameraguy Quote
I'd argue that almost everyone that shoots Pentax will swear that the bodies use a "get the tech out the way" ethos. Pentax ergonomics have always been amazing. As to IQ between APS-C and FF I'd agree the gap has closed, but FF has some advantages that are hard to replicate: such as DOF, high ISO, and typically lower CA/distortion ultrawides to name a few.

I do think that the Fuji ecosystem is currently very competitive, but it's too far to say that Pentax doesn't have its own advantages. Even if EVFs reached a retina level of pixel density with indistinguishable delay, not everyone likes to feel a digital layer between what they capture. I know that sounds like a statement lifted off some copy-ad, but its true.

If we did an apples to apples comparison of feature set, Leica wouldn't be the company it is today, nor will film photography be experiencing the resurgence it has for the past decade.
Someone mentioned that Pentax should revive a film body and I actually think that it would probably sell today.

I agree EVF isn't the "best" it's just different. I have an OMD mirrorless, all it is is a tiny liveview, good for some things and that lack of mirror box enables things like livebulb (bulb mode you watch expose in real time) Livecomp( expose one image then ONLY highlights get added, like lightning, you expose your landscape and wait, as lightning strikes it only adds that and the light effect around, it's actually super useful) and Procapture (buffers at 60fps so when you hit shutter you got it) IMO Olympus, while they failed and are going to be dismantled had the best implementation of mirrorless.

Fuji nails it with the XPro3 and the X100 series with hybrid viewfinders that are a true optical viewfinder (albeit rangefinder) and an EVF you can fip back and forth with a lever. Its my favorite and if Pentax made that in a DSLR that would be a KILLER feature and best of both worlds.

I agree on Pentax DSLR ergonomics and button setup. Pentax is still my favorite and probably the only reason I pick up my K-3 over the D750 because the D750 has better image quality. Pentax menus and buttons are easy and make sense to me. Nikon put things all over in weird places. Fuji is the BEST if you just want a few dials like an old school camera but the internal menus on at least my X100s are confusing and not intuitive if you need to go in there, good news is you basically don't need to. Olympus OMD is tiny compared to K-3 or D-750 and it's kind of it's own thing, amazing for travel, the best travel camera honestly.

As you can see Im a camera enthusiast and not really stuck with one brand.

I'm excited for the K-3 iii and it'll replace my K-3 if they get it right. I want a new 16-50 too my current one has a dead SDM and I would like a faster motor because that was one of my favorite and most used lenses.

10-28-2020, 07:59 AM - 2 Likes   #308
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Your logic is assuming most people want a camera body they can strike nails into a wall with and that this is viable for a Pentax body in the first place.


I get his point. There is a lot of competition in the camera market pushing improved tech at a lower price. I think that is why Ricoh's marketing is trying to sell their cameras on emotion -- user experience and the feeling one gets out of using the hardware.
I quote from their presentation:

"We are confident that it will meet your expectations as a lifetime partner for your photographic experiences."

Giving you a lifetime camera is Pentax' play, and it is certainly not Nikon's play with the Z5, or the rather flimsy (sorry but it's true) Z50.

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
There are already a few autofocus adapters for Z mount to use Nikon F, Canon EF, Sony E, and Leica M lenses.
That is a long-standing task that I will eventually get around to... the comprehensive adapter map.

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
And in the past 2 years that Z has been around, Nikon has released (to store shelves, not a paper launch) 14 Full Frame lenses and 2 Crop. So it isn't like it is seriously hurting for modern lenses.
And how many of them have truly excited you? Canon created a bit of a stir with the 28-70mm because it was f/2 and another very interesting take at the idea of a stack of primes. Other than that, mirrorless lenses are struggling with a variety of technical issues that I have written plenty about.

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I think the question is are you into photography to play with the gear or to get the shot? If you gravitate to one side more, the answer will probably lead you to a different outcome based on what you value and why. (arguing over it leads no where)
Again, I don't know what to take away from that question-rhetorical answer pair, but perhaps that is the intention.

---------- Post added 10-28-20 at 08:02 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
Someone mentioned that Pentax should revive a film body and I actually think that it would probably sell today.

I agree EVF isn't the "best" it's just different. I have an OMD mirrorless, all it is is a tiny liveview, good for some things and that lack of mirror box enables things like livebulb (bulb mode you watch expose in real time) Livecomp( expose one image then ONLY highlights get added, like lightning, you expose your landscape and wait, as lightning strikes it only adds that and the light effect around, it's actually super useful) and Procapture (buffers at 60fps so when you hit shutter you got it) IMO Olympus, while they failed and are going to be dismantled had the best implementation of mirrorless.
All of the above can in principle be done with any camera that has live view.
10-28-2020, 08:03 AM - 7 Likes   #309
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Pentax is indeed pivoting from good value to premium pricing and - at least with regards to bodies - that's happening very quickly. Disbelief at the new prices (which, by the way, we still don't know so let's not panic beforehand) is to be expected because the K-1ii spoiled us. Still, if people expected price competitiveness when DSLRs are substantially more expensive to make than MILCs and Pentax is a small player, I'm not sure what they were thinking. Would it be better if Pentax could sell this camera at a price close to the Canon 90D? Yes. But it's a better camera specs-wise, and most importantly the R&D cost cannot be absorbed as easily as with Canon's wider market. It just can't happen


They won't get a lot of new customers with the K-33 because there aren't a lot of new customers, but if people start dropping their K-5s and K-3s for the K-33 it should probably be enough, and the R&D won't be wasted - better prism in the K-13 and KP2, better AF, better processors.


Regarding the OVF, the Fuji X-Pro series doesn't have a TTL OVF, and the only correct response to the idea of using a 200mm+ lens* on a rangefinder window is "lol". Not like Fuji even has a meaningful selection of those anyway...

And as for EVFs, several of us cannot stand them. I don't care how many frames per second the tiny window has, a 3.69MDot panel is unbearable.



*Which is the prime market for the K-33, after all. Street/portrait APS-C shooters (where Fuji's at its very best IMO) are already very well served with the KP and the DA Limiteds. Just need a couple more fast primes there.

---------- Post added 10-28-20 at 08:08 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by someasiancameraguy Quote
I'd argue that almost everyone that shoots Pentax will swear that the bodies use a "get the tech out the way" ethos. Pentax ergonomics have always been amazing. As to IQ between APS-C and FF I'd agree the gap has closed, but FF has some advantages that are hard to replicate: such as DOF, high ISO, and typically lower CA/distortion ultrawides to name a few.

I do think that the Fuji ecosystem is currently very competitive, but it's too far to say that Pentax doesn't have its own advantages. Even if EVFs reached a retina level of pixel density with indistinguishable delay, not everyone likes to feel a digital layer between what they capture. I know that sounds like a statement lifted off some copy-ad, but its true.

If we did an apples to apples comparison of feature set, Leica wouldn't be the company it is today, nor will film photography be experiencing the resurgence it has for the past decade.
Yeah, the gap is certainly smaller between APS-C and FF, but physics are physics in the end.

Incidentally and speaking about FF, the K-1 is extremely unassuming. Not in terms of physical size, but in layout: it's all muscle memory and I don't remember the last time I had to menu-dive or look at the screen for more than two seconds to adjust something. Heck, the other day I went to shoot some sunsets and I didn't need to take my eyes off the OVF while working through half an hour of photos in different drive modes... If that's not "getting out of the way" I don't know what would qualify!
10-28-2020, 08:11 AM   #310
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QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
Disagree on high ISO - that's exactly the notch that Pentax is chiselling at with the Accelerator Unit.

If you look at image quality at, what do most people stop at, ISO 6400? Look at ISO 6400 with KP vs. full frame options. Especially if you process that with DxO, you get a clean file out of any current option at APS-C or above. Differences are becoming increasingly marginal. In terms of lens design, both sensor sizes have their advantages. I tend to think the future is zoom, and that favours smaller sensors.
I agree on ISO being "good enough" now with APS-C and FF after the KP came out. My K-3 while it lacks the D750 still works fine if I use the latest noise reduction tools in RAW. When looking at RAW's for KP they are very close to the 24mp FF sensors at up to 12800 which I rarely go over so for me at least there isn't really improvement that would trigger an urge to spend a few thousand for an extra stop of ISO at ISO 51200 for example.

I think the sensors have kind of hit the wall and future improvements will come in how they increase Dynamic Range and color science behind the brands. It's why Apples ProRAW is exciting to me. Not because I want to go run around with an iPhone only but because I want that to trickle into DSLR and Mirrorless. Imagine what iphones computational tricks would look like on a K-1 sensor for example.

Likely this K-3 iii will have a similar sensor to the latest Fuji's (it's a good sensor) with maybe the accelerator attached to boost it at high ISO. It'll probably match the recent 24MP Full Frame cameras or be extremely close. So for that the Pentax will be really nice. If they get a D-500 like Autofocus in there, awesome. Then just give me some fast motors to complete that and happy Pentaxian.
10-28-2020, 08:12 AM - 4 Likes   #311
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
Fight? no, just pointing out that Pentax has some competition out there and it's a much tougher market.

What would you do if you had no camera gear today and were starting new? If Pentax why? Compared to the other options? That's basically what I'm saying. I'm not trying to start a forum war. I'm saying it's a tough sell these days.

I'm honestly asking the question of what do they offer in 2020 that makes them unique?

I know I'm going to get salem witch trialed and it's close to Halloween but I was asking and observing as to why one would start fresh with Pentax in 2020.
You're not. You're praising other brands while dissing Pentax. And it's us who are on constant trial for choosing Pentax! But enough is enough!
Yes, I would go with Pentax, because they're the brand that believes in the future of the SLR photography.
10-28-2020, 08:15 AM - 1 Like   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
All of the above can in principle be done with any camera that has live view.
Of course it can but it's not the same. It's a luxury having both in the viewfinder. The D780 basically just embraced that principle by doing everything the z6 can in the live view including it's AF system. After all the EVF is just "tiny live view"
10-28-2020, 08:16 AM - 1 Like   #313
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QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
Disagree on high ISO - that's exactly the notch that Pentax is chiselling at with the Accelerator Unit.

If you look at image quality at, what do most people stop at, ISO 6400? Look at ISO 6400 with KP vs. full frame options. Especially if you process that with DxO, you get a clean file out of any current option at APS-C or above. Differences are becoming increasingly marginal. In terms of lens design, both sensor sizes have their advantages. I tend to think the future is zoom, and that favours smaller sensors.
Nah, the K-1 can get you nice A4 prints at ISO 25K with half a minute of NR work. Being able to shoot 1/400 in dim light with a relatively slow f/4 tele knowing the camera has your back is priceless.
10-28-2020, 08:22 AM   #314
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
I agree on ISO being "good enough" now with APS-C and FF after the KP came out. My K-3 while it lacks the D750 still works fine if I use the latest noise reduction tools in RAW. When looking at RAW's for KP they are very close to the 24mp FF sensors at up to 12800 which I rarely go over so for me at least there isn't really improvement that would trigger an urge to spend a few thousand for an extra stop of ISO at ISO 51200 for example.

I think the sensors have kind of hit the wall and future improvements will come in how they increase Dynamic Range and color science behind the brands. It's why Apples ProRAW is exciting to me. Not because I want to go run around with an iPhone only but because I want that to trickle into DSLR and Mirrorless. Imagine what iphones computational tricks would look like on a K-1 sensor for example.
I have a mixed relationship with "computational tricks" I can see myself potentially being on board as long as they don't falsify the image. Hallucination is one thing to currently look out for and avoid - it's the basis of Topaz Denoise AI, among others. Luckily, PRIME from DxO is still the better alternative.
QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
Likely this K-3 iii will have a similar sensor to the latest Fuji's (it's a good sensor) with maybe the accelerator attached to boost it at high ISO. It'll probably match the recent 24MP Full Frame cameras or be extremely close. So for that the Pentax will be really nice. If they get a D-500 like Autofocus in there, awesome. Then just give me some fast motors to complete that and happy Pentaxian.
The 26 megapixel sensor already has trouble competing with the previous 24 megapixel one. From my observations, it seems to likely depend on whether they go full monkey on the PDAF pixels like Fuji did.
10-28-2020, 08:22 AM - 5 Likes   #315
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
What would you do if you had no camera gear today and were starting new? If Pentax why? Compared to the other options? That's basically what I'm saying. I'm not trying to start a forum war. I'm saying it's a tough sell these days.
If it counts, I started roughly two years ago. Around me were Canon, Sony and Nikon users.

I chose Pentax specifically because of the OVF, ruggedness and IBIS, although I'd lie if I said that the much lower price of (used) older flagships didn't play a part. The ergonomics felt right from day 1 and I'm not in need of super fancy AF, so that's never been a problem.


Then I made the mistake of getting several M-series lenses, which quickly morphed into buying a K-1 and the 77 Limited, so now you'll have to pry my stuff from my cold dead hands
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