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10-31-2020, 02:29 AM   #541
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ian Stuart Forsyth Quote
One of the problems is that color has everything to do with how the raw data( measurements collected behind a filter mask) is processed into a color space. The process of converting a raw file into a color is not part of the sensor.
There is also the problem of what people think of as color accuracy, and if we look at images profiled for the best color accuracy they often are the least pleasing images to look at and this is why manufactures have their own look to how the raw files are processed into a color space.

There is also the problem and I always find it funny that people will tell you that yes my camera captures the image very accurately and show you with a s rgb file.
Even when just using the limited colors found in a Color Checker SG target you would be surprised to see how much falls outside of the S RGB colorspace
https://youtu.be/mmFiRFTkbqU

The wire frame is the S RGB space and all the dots are data created from the published colors from color checker sg

https://youtu.be/sCHZ5MHIFTA
Here it is in compared to Adobe RGB
You probably know all this but the post had a tendency to downplay.

Accurate colours are important when you are reproducing a known colour. People are able to see when its off and seem to automatically white balance.

Correct colours are also important when postprocessing. Its hard to keep colours in check when the starting point is a look profile.

The difference between sRGB and adobe is mainly in the super saturated. Colours I personally try to avoid. (If you shoot a lot of flowers you need the widest colourspace possible) Good accuracy in the sRGB space is thus very important because most of you image and most of your images will be inside sRGB. Then if its for screen display thats what the vast majority is using.

10-31-2020, 02:50 AM   #542
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Yep, and for what it means, most monitors on the market are so bad at reproducing colours that they do not even reproduce sRGB correctly (normal low end panels like TN etc.).
AdobeRGB coverage is... pricey !!
10-31-2020, 03:16 AM   #543
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It looks good, I look forward to reading the first reviews and experiences and seeing some shots. The price is going to be beyond my budget so no regrets going for a KP but in a couple of years who knows.
10-31-2020, 03:29 AM   #544
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
To be warned that by pressing the shutter you won't get the desired frame, but a black viewfinder.
That is odd, if not totally irrelevant.
Look @ K-P, K-1 or 645, M.UP doesn't appear in the viewfinder for the simple reason that the shutter or locking button moves itself the mirror once you have choosen the functionnality.
Informations reported in the viewfinder are those who are usefull during the viewing and shooting processes ; and there is no chance that such an additionnal "M.UP" marking could be justified only for alzheimer shooters.

10-31-2020, 03:33 AM - 3 Likes   #545
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
That is odd, if not totally irrelevant.
Look @ K-P, K-1 or 645, M.UP doesn't appear in the viewfinder for the simple reason that the shutter or locking button moves itself the mirror once you have choosen the functionnality.
Informations reported in the viewfinder are those who are usefull during the viewing and shooting processes ; and there is no chance that such an additionnal "M.UP" marking could be justified only for alzheimer shooters.
I'm far too young to have alzheimer and I cannot count the number of times I lost a photo because I forgot that the camera was on 2-second delay for tripod or mini-tripod shooting. More info presented in an unobtrusive way is always better.
10-31-2020, 03:36 AM - 2 Likes   #546
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
Accurate colours are important when you are reproducing a known colour. People are able to see when its off and seem to automatically white balance.
The major problem is that how cameras are designed to work and also the raw converter are based on profiles that create outgoing jpg files seldom are designed with color accuracy in mind



And Would not say that it is the super saturated colors that worry me that fall outside the S RGB every one of those with a hole punch from a colorcheck DG target cannot be recorded with that color space
Wire frame is Adobe and the solid is S RGB

Last edited by Ian Stuart Forsyth; 10-31-2020 at 03:54 AM.
10-31-2020, 03:46 AM   #547
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
That is odd, if not totally irrelevant.
Look @ K-P, K-1 or 645, M.UP doesn't appear in the viewfinder for the simple reason that the shutter or locking button moves itself the mirror once you have choosen the functionnality.
Informations reported in the viewfinder are those who are usefull during the viewing and shooting processes ; and there is no chance that such an additionnal "M.UP" marking could be justified only for alzheimer shooters.
I agree that this seems like an odd, even exotic decision. I mean I am happy to get information but this one is only relevant in so few cases.

Well, but then it is Pentax engineers who are good at coming up with such ideas.

It doesn't hurt anyway.

---------- Post added 31st Oct 2020 at 11:53 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Yep, and for what it means, most monitors on the market are so bad at reproducing colours that they do not even reproduce sRGB correctly (normal low end panels like TN etc.).
AdobeRGB coverage is... pricey !!
Unless ONLY viewing the images in a windowless room (who does that?) with zero non-calibrated, perfectl light sources this whole topic is limited to theory after reaching a certain level.
As soon as ambient light changes the correctness of color perception is gone anyhow.

Same with "white balance".

The most simple experiment is to think about how often you have in real life ever thought "that white in the shadows looks blue".
Me - never ever.
Same question with even perfectly calibrated profiles and images and prints: Lots and lots of times, especially when other parts of the subject are exposed to warm sunlight.

10-31-2020, 05:18 AM - 4 Likes   #548
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QuoteOriginally posted by taks Quote
I have a question about the accelerator chip.
I don't want to sidetrack this thread with a topic that can create heated debates, but since you asked, I'll answer.

Perhaps, if you are still curious, consider creating a dedicated thread about the topic.

QuoteOriginally posted by taks Quote
If I set the camera to limit the ISO to 100-640, will that effectively turn off the accelerator chip?
Yes, that will be the effect on the K-1 II, for example.

Unfortunately, the K-3 III will have the image processing kick in starting from ISO 100 already.

QuoteOriginally posted by taks Quote
And if the image is too dark, boosting exposure in post will not get the manipulation from the accelerator chip?
Yes, of course not.

QuoteOriginally posted by taks Quote
Is that how ISO invariance work?
Yes, that's how an "ISO invariant" sensor will work (not all sensors are like that, for instance, older Canon sensors definitely were not ISO invariant).

Note, however that there are two reasons why you are assuming an idealised picture.
  1. in practice it can be advantageous to use an appropriate ISO setting. Pushing an ISO 100 exposure will not always give an equivalent result.
  2. one of the reasons for the above is that some sensors can vary the gain used in A/D conversion. A modern breed of sensors uses a so-called "dual-gain" architecture which reduces the noise floor starting from a certain ISO setting. One can clearly see this behaviour as a discontinuity in ISO->noise graphs and it is this behaviour the Pentax engineers emulated with their software solution which is run on the so-called "accelerator chip".
FYI, the ideas some have expressed here as to why others have reservations about the use of non-optional in-camera image processing do not apply to me. I don't want things to be "more difficult" than they could be or have the mind of a five year old.

Of the top of my head, I can think of three reasons why using mandatory in-camera image processing is not a good idea:
  1. in the process of "improving" the image, information is lost (smoothed out). From audio research it is well known that weak signals can hide below a strong noise floor. If one takes many exposures (as you do in deep sky astrophotography, for instance), one can average out the noise and retrieve the weak signal. This results in image details you could otherwise not get (one of the reasons PixelShift produces cleaner images is because it uses multiple exposures which help with averaging out noise). Once the image has been manipulated by the "accelerator unit", the sub-noise floor signal is gone. There are respective measurements which show that the "accelerator unit" attenuates certain spatial frequencies (in order to make noisy images look cleaner).

  2. image processing techniques continue to improve over time. The Pentax engineers worked out an impressive way of treating images, but there is no doubt that in the future better methods will become available. Only if you have the original data from the sensor available, will future methods work optimally. If they have to work on an already manipulated image (cleaned up, saturation increased, partially sharpened, etc.) they won't be able to achieve the best results.

    There are two reasons to shoot RAW: a) obtain more manipulation latitude in post-processing, and b) reserve the option to use better RAW developers in the future to squeeze more quality out of the capture. The use of in-camera image processing throws a spanner into the works of the second reason.

  3. DPReview will always complain about something that isn't a mirrorless camera from their darling companies. However, there is no need to hand them ammunition on a silver plate. If the K-3 III will doctor RAW data starting from ISO 100 with no option to avoid that behaviour, DPReview will make sure its readers will know about it. Forget about any awards, this will be the death sentence for any appreciative review. As much as some people here believe DPReview has no impact on sales, with the amount of exposure DPReview achieves and the influence it has on dealers, etc., there is no doubt in my mind that Pentax will be losing some sales as a result of a damming DPReview "review".

Last edited by Class A; 10-31-2020 at 05:24 AM.
10-31-2020, 05:30 AM   #549
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
The difference between sRGB and adobe is mainly in the super saturated.
I agree with Ian Stuart Forsyth that this statement is underplaying the fact that there is a range of hues that sRGB simply cannot represent.

If you have ever seen a wide gamut monitor (which can display even larger colour spaces than AdobeRGB) then you know how stark the difference between greens and reds is when switching between sRGB and full gamut. Some of these out of sRGB gamut colours naturally occur in foliage or vegetable colours, for instance.
10-31-2020, 05:31 AM - 1 Like   #550
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Well Sigma entered the SLR camera business in... 1995 AFAIR (SA 300 SLR, SA mount). Not very efficient business IMO.
You're forgetting the Sigma SA-1, which was another rebadged Ricoh XR7 (great camera) from the early 1980's. Used the XR7's k-mount.
10-31-2020, 05:36 AM - 1 Like   #551
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I'm far too young to have alzheimer and I cannot count the number of times I lost a photo because I forgot that the camera was on 2-second delay for tripod or mini-tripod shooting. More info presented in an unobtrusive way is always better.
OK, i'm with you regarding forgetting 2 or 10s-delay, but you will notice there is no light warnings for the delayed-shutter in this camera's viewfinder either.
Sooo...

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
I agree that this seems like an odd, even exotic decision. I mean I am happy to get information but this one is only relevant in so few cases.

Well, but then it is Pentax engineers who are good at coming up with such ideas.

It doesn't hurt anyway.[COLOR="Silver"]
For once, as a Tesla driver, i foresee some "easter-egg" from Ricoh Imaging, and this M.UP feature is a good candidate for an hybrid viewfinder.

Moreover, hiding this innovation at this stage would be quite clever, not to unveil the big thing to competitors...
10-31-2020, 05:44 AM   #552
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ian Stuart Forsyth Quote
The major problem is that how cameras are designed to work and also the raw converter are based on profiles that create outgoing jpg files seldom are designed with color accuracy in mind
That's certainly true but also the reason people make their own profiles. It seems to me the Pentax flat profile is quite true if you increase contrast a bit but I haven't tested it nor have I seen anyone else do it. The Natural profile has clear Pentax colour twists in it.
10-31-2020, 06:09 AM - 2 Likes   #553
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@gatorguy @DamienW @Class A, I appreciate your detailed explanations. Thank you!
10-31-2020, 06:13 AM   #554
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
You're forgetting the Sigma SA-1, which was another rebadged Ricoh XR7 (great camera) from the early 1980's. Used the XR7's k-mount.
Ouch, didn't about that one.
Even worse then.
10-31-2020, 06:14 AM   #555
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
The most simple experiment is to think about how often you have in real life ever thought "that white in the shadows looks blue".
Me - never ever.
Same question with even perfectly calibrated profiles and images and prints: Lots and lots of times, especially when other parts of the subject are exposed to warm sunlight.
White in the shadows is blue - our brains tend to "fix" the colors we see.

This is from many years of shooting slide film, where no one has an opportunity to change the colors.

For example of our perceptions - many years ago I posted a photo of my daughter playing soccer, a photo taken on a very cool cloudy April day. I posted the photo for one reason, but I got a bushelful of comments about the color - "the girl's skin is too pink", "the surroundings are too blue". This photo started off as a Kodachrome slide .... a medium known to tilt towards red if anything; the colors of the scan agreed with the slide. In fact, the girls' skin was pinkish; I took the photo during the second half of a hard-fought soccer match - after that exertion, of course it was pinkish/blushed. The surroundings were bluish; it was a cloudy day in April - everyone has experienced that sort of day. Sportswriter Grantland Rice made a name for himself - and for the Notre Dame backfield - in writing that began “Outlined against a blue, gray October sky the Four Horsemen rode again", painting a word picture of a scene that every reader was familiar to every reader.
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