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03-07-2021, 01:30 PM - 1 Like   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The customers might actually prefer simpler, better and less expensive wide angle lenses.
They might, but in reality they get such strong vignetting and color shifting that they wish they were back with long-register retrofocus lenses that send the rays straight down to the pixels.

03-07-2021, 02:55 PM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
While you are technically correct, a mirrorless system could use a existing DSLR mount, the experience of the real world is that no one thinks this is a good idea. As far as I know the K-01 is the only mirrorless camera produced with a DSLR mount and flange distance, and it was short-lived and commercially unsuccessful. I would think that if this was a good idea someone, somewhere in the last decade+ would have made a successful mirrorless camera with a DSLR mount.

There are cases where all the companies in a field were completely wrong about a basic technology for years, but the simplest explanation here is that no camera company sees the business case or advantages of mirrorless with a permanent adapter.
There were also the Sigma sd Quattro (APS-C) and sd Quattro H (APS-H), which were short-lived and commercially unsuccessful too. SIgma are now using the L mount for their mirrorless cameras.
03-07-2021, 10:49 PM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
They might, but in reality they get such strong vignetting and color shifting that they wish they were back with long-register retrofocus lenses that send the rays straight down to the pixels.
It doesn't have to be like this - and I wonder if that's actually true for the actual MF mirrorless lenses.
03-08-2021, 11:34 AM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And if one doesn't fit into these narrow patterns?
Structured thinking.

03-08-2021, 12:17 PM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Structured thinking.
Nope, that's reasoning built to reach a predefined conclusion.

The funny thing is, these formats weren't exactly made for "photographic use cases" - APS-C, for example, occurred because 35mm-sized sensors were too expensive, and required stitching with the existing equipment. So a technical limitation.
The 35mm format itself... but we all know the story.

Having both APS-C and "full frame" (and, perhaps, medium format) isn't less "photographically valid" than having APS-C and medium format.
03-08-2021, 12:37 PM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Nope, that's reasoning built to reach a predefined conclusion.
And what do you think of the nature of your answer to that?
03-08-2021, 01:44 PM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
And what do you think of the nature of your answer to that?
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be goaded into a nonsensical argument.
Can you better support your claim about these specific formats being made "based on photographic use cases" and others weren't? If not, perhaps you don't have a point.
03-08-2021, 02:31 PM - 1 Like   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The Fuji is a alternative to a high-end FF DSLR. That is not what Pentax need as they arguably already have a high-end FF DSLR, or at will have at some point. Pentax need something that is very different from an FF DSLR. I believe Pentax tries to avoid making camera formats that competes to much with each other by differentiate them enough. They have three formats: APS, FF and 645. They are probably trying to make each one of them doing what they do best while avoid stepping on each others toes....
We shouldn’t let language fool us here. Pentax has three sensor formats, which are APS-C, 35mm and 445. 645 refers to the body, not the sensor. What they haven’t done is taken their 645 body and placed a 645 sensor in it. That, in itself, would distinguish the 645 bodies from the K-mount bodies, let alone adding extras like sensor shift. Further improvements like the new prism glass would add to the appeal (I’m not sure faster AF would be a significant extra, given the common types of use for such a body format).

I’m pretty sure that Ricoh’s management will be considering all the options (I know that’s their standard answer, even if it’s phrased slightly differently, such as “We continue to study the market”) and that level in Ricoh’s hierarchy is probably well above those from which lemono or others here or in DPR get their information.

03-08-2021, 02:58 PM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
We shouldn’t let language fool us here. Pentax has three sensor formats, which are APS-C, 35mm and 445. 645 refers to the body, not the sensor. What they haven’t done is taken their 645 body and placed a 645 sensor in it. That, in itself, would distinguish the 645 bodies from the K-mount bodies, let alone adding extras like sensor shift. Further improvements like the new prism glass would add to the appeal (I’m not sure faster AF would be a significant extra, given the common types of use for such a body format).

I’m pretty sure that Ricoh’s management will be considering all the options (I know that’s their standard answer, even if it’s phrased slightly differently, such as “We continue to study the market”) and that level in Ricoh’s hierarchy is probably well above those from which lemono or others here or in DPR get their information.

Exactly. And that's what I'm trying to say. When the 645D was developed there was no FF Pentax and probably none in the plans. Hence the distance to the APS bodies was sufficiently large, Now with an FF body, and every indication that they will continue providing FF bodies in future, they need to move the 645 further away from the FF system by implementing a larger sensor. In adition it give them a competitive edge in this segment of the marked. I would not expect a mirrorless MF system now that they have declared their strategy clearly to be about the optical finder; ie the DSLR.
03-08-2021, 03:00 PM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
We shouldn’t let language fool us here. Pentax has three sensor formats, which are APS-C, 35mm and 445. 645 refers to the body, not the sensor. What they haven’t done is taken their 645 body and placed a 645 sensor in it. That, in itself, would distinguish the 645 bodies from the K-mount bodies, let alone adding extras like sensor shift. Further improvements like the new prism glass would add to the appeal (I’m not sure faster AF would be a significant extra, given the common types of use for such a body format).

I’m pretty sure that Ricoh’s management will be considering all the options (I know that’s their standard answer, even if it’s phrased slightly differently, such as “We continue to study the market”) and that level in Ricoh’s hierarchy is probably well above those from which lemono or others here or in DPR get their information.
I still want the 67D
03-08-2021, 04:10 PM - 1 Like   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Exactly. And that's what I'm trying to say. When the 645D was developed there was no FF Pentax and probably none in the plans. Hence the distance to the APS bodies was sufficiently large, Now with an FF body, and every indication that they will continue providing FF bodies in future, they need to move the 645 further away from the FF system by implementing a larger sensor. In adition it give them a competitive edge in this segment of the marked. I would not expect a mirrorless MF system now that they have declared their strategy clearly to be about the optical finder; ie the DSLR.
Can their current lenses handle the larger image circle implied by a "larger sensor"?
03-08-2021, 04:46 PM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Can their current lenses handle the larger image circle implied by a "larger sensor"?
Technically, yes, but the sharpness of most of the older designs is unlikely to be enough when a FF 645 sensor is put behind them, although there may be some that are up to par (35mm, 90mm, 120mm, 28-45mm).
03-09-2021, 03:46 AM - 1 Like   #208
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Add the 55mm and the 45-85. The latter was on the roadmap for replacement anyway. However I believe most 645 lenses would be good enough stopped down. If you don't need edge sharpness wide open they will be just fine. You will want to stop down most of the time anyway in order to get enough DOF. My most used aperture when using the film 645's was F:16.....
03-09-2021, 05:22 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Add the 55mm and the 45-85. The latter was on the roadmap for replacement anyway. However I believe most 645 lenses would be good enough stopped down. If you don't need edge sharpness wide open they will be just fine. You will want to stop down most of the time anyway in order to get enough DOF. My most used aperture when using the film 645's was F:16.....
I didn't have the (modern) 55mm. I did like the 45-85mm, yes, but I understand that it is not as good at the tele end.

Stopped down: that's not what you want to use the portrait lenses for. But maybe I'm too harsh. The 90mm seems to be awesome, with the 35mm (A) that I still have, and the DFA 55mm (if it isn't as bad as they initially said it was) that would be a great set.
I also still have a Rollei 6000 50mm, 80mm and 150mm which I could have converted into manual aperture lenses... There was someone providing this service. These lenses are great (Zeiss, Zeiss, Schneider-Kreuznach in my case).
03-09-2021, 07:06 AM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote

I’m pretty sure that Ricoh’s management will be considering all the options (I know that’s their standard answer, even if it’s phrased slightly differently, such as “We continue to study the market”) and that level in Ricoh’s hierarchy is probably well above those from which lemono or others here or in DPR get their information.
This is my great hope! It would seem very odd to utterly abandon something they've been doing since 1984, and recommitted to prior to 1997 (645N launch), prior to 2001 (645NII launch), before 2010, the release of the 645D, and prior to 2014, the 645Z launch. Along with the lenses, and considering the other lines being developed and produced, including another medium format camera, and the size of the company, it looks like a significant commitment to the line, despite what others continually say.
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