Pentax K-3 Mark III - First Hands-on

reh321 · 12-23-2020, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Smolk

That is a very unenlightened approach. Yes, results count most, but knowing how Pentax gets there is a legitimate part of the story.

and Pentax gets there via externals controls.

How is that unenlightened???

The Sony approach of using menus looks unenlightened to me.
I can make most major changes without removing my KP from my eye {I have to look for the button that allows me to change EC} instead of diving into a bunch of confusing menus.

Breakfastographer · 12-23-2020, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by pres589

So you think it's the sensor from the X-T2? I'm not sure I'm following which you're suggesting.

No, that would be a 24 megapixel sensor, possibly the same one used in the KP.

The 26 megapixel sensor is the one in the X-T3, and is BSI. Its noise characteristics are worse than the X-T2, probably attributable to a combination of smaller photo sites and a large proportion dedicated to OSPDAF in the X-T3.

The number of OSPDAF pixels is not necessarily the same in the X-T3 and K-3 III, but what we can see (there's that link again) is that between the 24 megapixel FSI sensor and the 26 megapixel BSI one, Fujifilm lost some image quality. @surfar suggested there would be an effect of BSI, but it looks like there really isn't a substantial effect in this case. This is in broad agreement with similar results from other pairs of cameras, like the Nikon Z5 (24 megapixel FSI) and Z6 (25 megapixel BSI), where image quality, again, doesn't differ very much at typical ISO values (in that case, you can start to see it above ISO 6400 in raw and a little earlier in SOOC JPEG).

Smolk · 12-23-2020, 07:10 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by reh321

and Pentax gets there via externals controls.

How is that unenlightened???

The Sony approach of using menus looks unenlightened to me.
I can make most major changes without removing my KP from my eye {I have to look for the button that allows me to change EC} instead of diving into a bunch of confusing menus.

I think our replies are getting cross-wired, as I didn't object to this point at all. Let's forget about it. I was just curious to learn how Pentax achieves the IQ improvement in the K-3 III.

reh321 · 12-23-2020, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Smolk

I think our replies are getting cross-wired, as I didn't object to this point at all. Let's forget about it. [HL]I was just curious to learn how Pentax achieves the IQ improvement in the K-3III[?HL].

I responded to that interest in #204

Originally posted by reh321

The best "explanation" will consist of using it.
Perhaps the 'accelerator' will run at all ISO levels - I don't know how that will effect image IQ, but it very easily could, with lower noise, better colors, and high DR at all levels.
In any case, the best advice is to just wait and see - look at the results instead of asking how they are achieved.

**pres589** · 12-23-2020, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Breakfastographer

No, that would be a 24 megapixel sensor, possibly the same one used in the KP.

The 26 megapixel sensor is the one in the X-T3, and is BSI. Its noise characteristics are worse than the X-T2, probably attributable to a combination of smaller photo sites and a large proportion dedicated to OSPDAF in the X-T3.

The number of OSPDAF pixels is not necessarily the same in the X-T3 and K-3 III, but what we can see (there's that link again) is that between the 24 megapixel FSI sensor and the 26 megapixel BSI one, Fujifilm lost some image quality. @surfar suggested there would be an effect of BSI, but it looks like there really isn't a substantial effect in this case. This is in broad agreement with similar results from other pairs of cameras, like the Nikon Z5 (24 megapixel FSI) and Z6 (25 megapixel BSI), where image quality, again, doesn't differ very much at typical ISO values (in that case, you can start to see it above ISO 6400 in raw and a little earlier in SOOC JPEG).

Is this theoretical use of the X-T3's sensor going to drive the K-3 III to a much less ISO-invariant output vs. what we've become used to with Pentax digital cameras in the CMOS era?

We'll see on all this.

**Mbaez** · 12-23-2020, 09:06 PM

It looks so cool. Hopefully it won't cost way more than 2K... I know, wishful thinking.

Paul the Sunman · 12-23-2020, 09:13 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Breakfastographer

I believe it is this sensor:
Noise on the X-T3 should be 6% worse than the X-T2, and it is! – breakfastographer

At least nobody has dug up any other sensor it could be.

X-T3 is BSI, X-T2 is FSI.

I'm feeling somewhat more sanguine about noise on the K3iii than some posters here. It just doesn't seem plausible that Pentax would commit to a maximum iso of 1.6 million if the performance at iso 3200 say were worse than current models. Although I'm sure iso 1.6 M is pretty dreadful, I would expect 2 or 3 stops down to be useable.

Ian Stuart Forsyth · 12-23-2020, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by pres589

Is this theoretical use of the X-T3's sensor going to drive the K-3 III to a much less ISO-invariant output vs. what we've become used to with Pentax digital cameras in the CMOS era?

We'll see on all this.

If the K3mk III is using the most current sensor in Sony's catalogue then we are more than likely going to see newer tech including BSI and DCG (dual conversion gain)
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Aptina/DR-Pix_WhitePaper.pdf

This is the next evolution with Sony sensors, before we where limited to have a sensor that was optimized for high iso work or for low iso work
With DCG we have a switch that allows the user to select the best of both worlds, performance at lower iso when we want to use the FWC and performance at higher iso only using a fraction of the FWC.

What you have in the end is 2 settings for ISO-invariant

siva.ss.kumar · 12-23-2020, 10:11 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by repaap

At around 2 min. mark they show VF and talk about it. I see option for AF H...there is also just AF. Presuminh H stands for High. So. that is new too. I know AF S, AF C. have not heard of AF H.? any thoughts?

Did we find what AF-H means in this context? AF-Hybrid??

keos · 12-24-2020, 01:34 AM

did anyone else notice it only has 1 UHS-2 slot? after using this setup on the A7iii and comparing it to the Canon R6, kind of feel skimping on having 1 UHS2 slot means it just has 2 UHS1 slots. That said as long as the slots can actually hit 90MB/s in UHS1 mode I that's a far better result than what Pentax cameras can do now (unless the KP is faster, which I've never tested)

**BROO** · 12-24-2020, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by siva.ss.kumar

Did we find what AF-H means in this context? AF-Hybrid??

Could be. Wonder how that would work?

**Serkevan** · 12-24-2020, 02:12 AM - **1 Like**

AF-Head? Normally they'd say AF-Face I guess, but who knows.
The symbol seems to show the four corners of a "frame" inside so I'd bet it's a "smart" mode rather than the single point/single area modes where you select...

neokind · 12-24-2020, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by reh321

and Pentax gets there via externals controls.

How is that unenlightened???

The Sony approach of using menus looks unenlightened to me.
I can make most major changes without removing my KP from my eye {I have to look for the button that allows me to change EC} instead of diving into a bunch of confusing menus.

Do you or have you owned a Sony? They are designed to allow you to customize the function of almost all the external controls—all while continuing to look through the eyepiece.

siva.ss.kumar · 12-24-2020, 03:20 AM - **1 Like**

I think AF-H could mean this. AF-Hyperfocal
AF-H: A new focusing mode ...

**Serkevan** · 12-24-2020, 03:36 AM

Originally posted by siva.ss.kumar

I think AF-H could mean this. AF-Hyperfocal
AF-H: A new focusing mode ...

Okay, that makes sense and it would be great as well.

Have I mentioned yet how much I'm interested in seeing what the new body can do?

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12-23-2020, 07:00 PM	#211
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by Smolk That is a very unenlightened approach. Yes, results count most, but knowing how Pentax gets there is a legitimate part of the story. and Pentax gets there via externals controls. How is that unenlightened??? The Sony approach of using menus looks unenlightened to me. I can make most major changes without removing my KP from my eye {I have to look for the button that allows me to change EC} instead of diving into a bunch of confusing menus.

12-23-2020, 07:08 PM	#212
Breakfastographer Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 673	Originally posted by pres589 So you think it's the sensor from the X-T2? I'm not sure I'm following which you're suggesting. No, that would be a 24 megapixel sensor, possibly the same one used in the KP. The 26 megapixel sensor is the one in the X-T3, and is BSI. Its noise characteristics are worse than the X-T2, probably attributable to a combination of smaller photo sites and a large proportion dedicated to OSPDAF in the X-T3. The number of OSPDAF pixels is not necessarily the same in the X-T3 and K-3 III, but what we can see (there's that link again) is that between the 24 megapixel FSI sensor and the 26 megapixel BSI one, Fujifilm lost some image quality. @surfar suggested there would be an effect of BSI, but it looks like there really isn't a substantial effect in this case. This is in broad agreement with similar results from other pairs of cameras, like the Nikon Z5 (24 megapixel FSI) and Z6 (25 megapixel BSI), where image quality, again, doesn't differ very much at typical ISO values (in that case, you can start to see it above ISO 6400 in raw and a little earlier in SOOC JPEG).

12-23-2020, 07:10 PM - 1 Like	#213
Smolk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Eerbeek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,857	Originally posted by reh321 and Pentax gets there via externals controls. How is that unenlightened??? The Sony approach of using menus looks unenlightened to me. I can make most major changes without removing my KP from my eye {I have to look for the button that allows me to change EC} instead of diving into a bunch of confusing menus. I think our replies are getting cross-wired, as I didn't object to this point at all. Let's forget about it. I was just curious to learn how Pentax achieves the IQ improvement in the K-3 III.

12-23-2020, 07:15 PM	#214
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by Smolk I think our replies are getting cross-wired, as I didn't object to this point at all. Let's forget about it. [HL]I was just curious to learn how Pentax achieves the IQ improvement in the K-3III[?HL]. I responded to that interest in #204 Originally posted by reh321 The best "explanation" will consist of using it. Perhaps the 'accelerator' will run at all ISO levels - I don't know how that will effect image IQ, but it very easily could, with lower noise, better colors, and high DR at all levels. In any case, the best advice is to just wait and see - look at the results instead of asking how they are achieved.

12-23-2020, 07:25 PM	#215
pres589 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Wichita, KS Photos: Albums Posts: 4,533	Originally posted by Breakfastographer No, that would be a 24 megapixel sensor, possibly the same one used in the KP. The 26 megapixel sensor is the one in the X-T3, and is BSI. Its noise characteristics are worse than the X-T2, probably attributable to a combination of smaller photo sites and a large proportion dedicated to OSPDAF in the X-T3. The number of OSPDAF pixels is not necessarily the same in the X-T3 and K-3 III, but what we can see (there's that link again) is that between the 24 megapixel FSI sensor and the 26 megapixel BSI one, Fujifilm lost some image quality. @surfar suggested there would be an effect of BSI, but it looks like there really isn't a substantial effect in this case. This is in broad agreement with similar results from other pairs of cameras, like the Nikon Z5 (24 megapixel FSI) and Z6 (25 megapixel BSI), where image quality, again, doesn't differ very much at typical ISO values (in that case, you can start to see it above ISO 6400 in raw and a little earlier in SOOC JPEG). Is this theoretical use of the X-T3's sensor going to drive the K-3 III to a much less ISO-invariant output vs. what we've become used to with Pentax digital cameras in the CMOS era? We'll see on all this.

12-23-2020, 09:06 PM	#216
Mbaez Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: NY Photos: Albums Posts: 3,774	It looks so cool. Hopefully it won't cost way more than 2K... I know, wishful thinking.

12-23-2020, 09:13 PM - 1 Like	#217
Paul the Sunman Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,846	Originally posted by Breakfastographer I believe it is this sensor: Noise on the X-T3 should be 6% worse than the X-T2, and it is! – breakfastographer At least nobody has dug up any other sensor it could be. X-T3 is BSI, X-T2 is FSI. I'm feeling somewhat more sanguine about noise on the K3iii than some posters here. It just doesn't seem plausible that Pentax would commit to a maximum iso of 1.6 million if the performance at iso 3200 say were worse than current models. Although I'm sure iso 1.6 M is pretty dreadful, I would expect 2 or 3 stops down to be useable.

12-23-2020, 09:39 PM	#218
Ian Stuart Forsyth Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Somewhere over the rainbow Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,531	Originally posted by pres589 Is this theoretical use of the X-T3's sensor going to drive the K-3 III to a much less ISO-invariant output vs. what we've become used to with Pentax digital cameras in the CMOS era? We'll see on all this. If the K3mk III is using the most current sensor in Sony's catalogue then we are more than likely going to see newer tech including BSI and DCG (dual conversion gain) https://www.photonstophotos.net/Aptina/DR-Pix_WhitePaper.pdf This is the next evolution with Sony sensors, before we where limited to have a sensor that was optimized for high iso work or for low iso work With DCG we have a switch that allows the user to select the best of both worlds, performance at lower iso when we want to use the FWC and performance at higher iso only using a fraction of the FWC. What you have in the end is 2 settings for ISO-invariant

12-23-2020, 10:11 PM - 1 Like	#219
siva.ss.kumar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Chennai, India Photos: Albums Posts: 534	Originally posted by repaap At around 2 min. mark they show VF and talk about it. I see option for AF H...there is also just AF. Presuminh H stands for High. So. that is new too. I know AF S, AF C. have not heard of AF H.? any thoughts? Did we find what AF-H means in this context? AF-Hybrid??

12-24-2020, 01:34 AM	#220
keos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 108	did anyone else notice it only has 1 UHS-2 slot? after using this setup on the A7iii and comparing it to the Canon R6, kind of feel skimping on having 1 UHS2 slot means it just has 2 UHS1 slots. That said as long as the slots can actually hit 90MB/s in UHS1 mode I that's a far better result than what Pentax cameras can do now (unless the KP is faster, which I've never tested)

12-24-2020, 02:05 AM	#221
BROO Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 656	Originally posted by siva.ss.kumar Did we find what AF-H means in this context? AF-Hybrid?? Could be. Wonder how that would work?

12-24-2020, 02:12 AM - 1 Like	#222
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,976	AF-Head? Normally they'd say AF-Face I guess, but who knows. The symbol seems to show the four corners of a "frame" inside so I'd bet it's a "smart" mode rather than the single point/single area modes where you select...

12-24-2020, 02:23 AM	#223
neokind Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Sunny San Diego Posts: 336	Originally posted by reh321 and Pentax gets there via externals controls. How is that unenlightened??? The Sony approach of using menus looks unenlightened to me. I can make most major changes without removing my KP from my eye {I have to look for the button that allows me to change EC} instead of diving into a bunch of confusing menus. Do you or have you owned a Sony? They are designed to allow you to customize the function of almost all the external controls—all while continuing to look through the eyepiece.

12-24-2020, 03:20 AM - 1 Like	#224
siva.ss.kumar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Chennai, India Photos: Albums Posts: 534	I think AF-H could mean this. AF-Hyperfocal AF-H: A new focusing mode ...

12-24-2020, 03:36 AM	#225
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,976	Originally posted by siva.ss.kumar I think AF-H could mean this. AF-Hyperfocal AF-H: A new focusing mode ... Okay, that makes sense and it would be great as well. Have I mentioned yet how much I'm interested in seeing what the new body can do?