[The Squirrel Mafia]

The six tweets posted today by Kimio Tanaka:

The K-3III will be quite amazing If it really can detect & track specific subjects. That's an even bigger leap than what current Nikon DSLR cameras can do. I'm looking forward to CP+. Hopefully Ricoh will spill every single bean about this camera by then.

[jersey]

Yeah, AI supported AF-C is something I'm starting to drool at. I think decision to buy 35mm limited and not switching to K-1 was a good one

[MMVIII]

Translated with DeepL Translate (free version)

Thanks, just wanted to post the translation with deepL when I saw you beat me on that

The "deep learning" part is interesting, but it is also not new to Pentax.
It was already announced in the KP.
Features4 | PENTAX KP | RICOH IMAGING

But this version for sure will have more data to work with of various sensors and more processing power to apply.

But interesting, why has noone attempted to test this feature thoroughly? I have always complained that most AF tests are very random and lack systematic approaches (looking at you, bicycle rider...)*
Maybe all "problems" in Pentax DSLR tracking AF came only from the fact that the system could not learn - because the photographer was a noob and never focussed in any consistently understandable way?

*which might be fair enough from a users perspective, most will also just turn it on and expect to be ready for shooting. But for technical enthusiasts some quantitative data points would be interesting (it manages/fails at this speed, this contrast, this size, this color...)

[jpzk]

The K-3III will be quite amazing If it really can detect & track specific subjects. That's an even bigger leap than what current Nikon DSLR cameras can do. I'm looking forward to CP+. Hopefully Ricoh will spill every single bean about this camera by then.

Totally agreed!
For birding photography (BIF shots), AF-C tracking is a must!
I can't hardly wait until this (maybe?) materializes with the K3 III.

[siva.ss.kumar]

I would also like animal based auto exposures in addition to the tracking based on shapes. Ex. Expose the egrets differently than say a drongo

[beholder3]

The "deep learning" part is interesting, but it is also not new to Pentax.
It was already announced in the KP.

Deep Learning with regards to cameras with their very limited processing power usually means that the maker trains a big computer hard- and software to recognize certain patterns over a time - feeding it millions o sample photos - until recognition is good and then the "know-how" core is put into camera firmware, so it can recognize the patterns.

The learning new additional stuff does not happen in cameras though (a common misconception).

That is how it works in Canons R6/R5 at least (and they boast the industry's best pattern recognition currently).
"animal/eye AF" is driven by such pattern recognition thingies.

[TwoUptons]

Deep Learning with regards to cameras with their very limited processing power usually means that the maker trains a big computer hard- and software to recognize certain patterns over a time - feeding it millions o sample photos - until recognition is good and then the "know-how" core is put into camera firmware, so it can recognize the patterns.

The learning new additional stuff does not happen in cameras though (a common misconception).

That is how it works in Canons R6/R5 at least (and they boast the industry's best pattern recognition currently).
"animal/eye AF" is driven by such pattern recognition thingies.

That's how Nikon's first "Matrix Metering" worked (was that in the FA first?)
It was basically a table lookup based on the relative brightness of the matrix elements compared to the set of samples.

In the earliest cameras (again, I'm thinking of the FA), the meter would sometimes pause as it worked through the right answer...

Minolta's "fuzzy logic" in the early-mid 90s (Maxxum/Dynax 7xi?) was sold as a contrast to that -- it supposedly "figured out" the scene and picked the right setting, not requiring a table of predetermined samples.
I don't know how much of that was marketing nonsense, though, as its been pointed out that cameras aren't that "smart", generally...

-Eric

[ffking]

The learning new additional stuff does not happen in cameras though (a common misconception).

I'm no expert on all this, but it's difficult to see logically how learning could take place in camera as there's no feedback system to say what's better than what - I must admit I've wondered about that before

[MMVIII]

Deep Learning with regards to cameras with their very limited processing power usually means that the maker trains a big computer hard- and software to recognize certain patterns over a time - feeding it millions o sample photos - until recognition is good and then the "know-how" core is put into camera firmware, so it can recognize the patterns.

The learning new additional stuff does not happen in cameras though (a common misconception).

That is how it works in Canons R6/R5 at least (and they boast the industry's best pattern recognition currently).
"animal/eye AF" is driven by such pattern recognition thingies.

I forgot to put a smiley and maybe my sarcasm was too hidden here

[UlrichSchiegg]

Kimio Tanaka seems to be a phtographer and not too much into technical details. There have been several DSLR released last year (e.g. 90D, D6, 1D X iii, D780) and I expect there will be some more coming this year D850 successor, D500 successor? Also the tracking is available in todays Pentax cameras already.

The deep learning mode today is stated (for KP and K-1) as available in green mode only.

The use of the RGB-Sensor together with the prime processor to make the Analysis System was stated in the K-3 i.e. 2013 already (Feature 1?K-3 | RICOH IMAGING) - shape and color detection, subject detection. The 1st mention for Nikon consumer cameras to my knowledge is the D90 in 2008 (https://org.imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d90/pdf/d90_16p.pdf).

There is a lot of discussion regarding Pentax AF capability. I don't think is a Pentax specific issue, it is a prize range issue. The question is about speed of a camera to allow the control system to work e.g. mirror black out times, processing time, buffer read-out time, shutter, .... Todays Pentax cameras are rather slow in that respect. With the K-3 iii that should change.

On the more costly camera side, in Nikon and Canon cameras (e.g. D500) you can give the AF control system a target by setting in the menue "face detect" for example. To what was posted earlier for the K-3 iii that feature will be available. It would be new for Pentax, also the speed of the camera is on a different level.

Looking forward to see the result with respect to AF precision.

---------- Post added 01-07-21 at 06:07 PM ----------

In industry, deep learning or artificial intelligence can be a name of analysis of a very large number of similar situations available from the internet and using that information to help a control system to maintain the target. Meant is really analysis of similar situations and programming that into the control system. E.g. a person is in camera focus, both eyes visible, then turns it head, only one eye visible, which is more difficult to identify as a face. Give the camera a few sample images and it would know from the initial start with both eyes vsibile how the image structure evolves over time. Camera could now swith eye and maintain focus.

What is usually not meant is, that the camera learns from the photographer using that specific camera in a certain way.

The K-1 has feature pages, which explain the deep learning feature.

[LeeRunge]

As far as i know the most advanced system with detection of subjects is in the R5/R6 mirrorless cameras. My Z5 (which has same AF as the 6/7) detects faces/eyes and cats/dogs but not birds. The D780 has the same system in liveview.

I really hope this K3-3 takes a big leap forward for AF-C for Pentax. As far as I know the best cameras for BIF are still the D850/500 and the Canon R5/6 and latest Sony’s. Plus the very expensive D6/1DX iii. It would be really cool if Pentax got to that level of autofocus. I’m not sure about the lens motor speed versys the Canikony’s though.

[RobG]

As far as i know the most advanced system with detection of subjects is in the R5/R6 mirrorless cameras. My Z5 (which has same AF as the 6/7) detects faces/eyes and cats/dogs but not birds. The D780 has the same system in liveview.

I did see a review of a camera which had bird detection - looks like it's Olympus which do this.

I really hope this K3-3 takes a big leap forward for AF-C for Pentax. As far as I know the best cameras for BIF are still the D850/500 and the Canon R5/6 and latest Sony’s. Plus the very expensive D6/1DX iii. It would be really cool if Pentax got to that level of autofocus. I’m not sure about the lens motor speed versys the Canikony’s though.

The HDDA 55-300 PLM and DFA 150-450 motors are pretty quick. Most other lenses are slower as far as I know which could be a hassle for those like me who would be keen to use the DSLR as a video camera as well as for AFC stills.

[LeeRunge]

I did see a review of a camera which had bird detection - looks like it's Olympus which do this.


The HDDA 55-300 PLM and DFA 150-450 motors are pretty quick. Most other lenses are slower as far as I know which could be a hassle for those like me who would be keen to use the DSLR as a video camera as well as for AFC stills.

I forgot about Olympus, the EM1X i think does that, and maybe the EM1 iii. The Canon R5/6 I think are the other one that does birds specifically. The new R5/6 has a really good AF system.

The Z lenses I have are so fast I sometimes hit the button again thinking it didn’t AF, it’s almost instant. Also silent for video. Huge contrast to the 60-250 with the older SDM motor, that thing is molasses slow, but a nice lense for images. The fastest lenses I have for my Pentax are actually Sigma’s. But I don’t have the newer 55-300 or the DFA 150-450. I’d be curious to see how they are compared to the Nikon F or Z lenses i have. The Z lenses are very fast and quiet.

While I’m not impressed with the AF-C i have in my K-3 ( I have never tried the K-1’s or KP), part of it is that I don’t have anything but the sigma’s with fast motors as the DA* lenses I have are pretty slow SDM lenses. That doesn’t help the K-3. And it’s just slow to react in general in AF-C compared to the Nikon (D750 and Z5) which are very fast in AF-C and track very well. The Z system does things a bit different than the Nikon DSLR’s but it works really well.

I’d be very excited for Pentax if they catch up to all the other brands in AF or surpass them. I’m not holding my breath but if they can meet/surpass the D-750/780 system with more AF points that would I think be perfectly fine for 98% of people’s AF-C needs. Even better if it’s on par with the D500 which is regarded as one of the best BIF camera’s you can buy right now.

Exciting news nonetheless. And we know Pentax will bring top class image quality, they always do.

[RobG]

While I’m not impressed with the AF-C i have in my K-3 ( I have never tried the K-1’s or KP), part of it is that I don’t have anything but the sigma’s with fast motors as the DA* lenses I have are pretty slow SDM lenses. That doesn’t help the K-3. And it’s just slow to react in general in AF-C compared to the Nikon (D750 and Z5) which are very fast in AF-C and track very well. The Z system does things a bit different than the Nikon DSLR’s but it works really well.

I have never had a good experience with the K3 AFC until recently when I was photographing Little Terns using the DFA 150-450 where it actually did better than I expected.

I’d be very excited for Pentax if they catch up to all the other brands in AF or surpass them. I’m not holding my breath but if they can meet/surpass the D-750/780 system with more AF points that would I think be perfectly fine for 98% of people’s AF-C needs. Even better if it’s on par with the D500 which is regarded as one of the best BIF camera’s you can buy right now.

I'd be astonished if it exceeded the AF of cameras like the Sony a6000. But if it is a big improvement on the K3, I'll be happy. I haven't tried the K1 which I believe is currently the Pentax camera with the best AF. I actually expect the K3iii to have better AF than the K1.

Exciting news nonetheless. And we know Pentax will bring top class image quality, they always do.

I'm curious about the claim that the image quality will be improved at all ISO settings as well as extending the useful high ISO significantly. In any case I can't wait until I can pre-order!

[Paul the Sunman]

I’d be very excited for Pentax if they catch up to all the other brands in AF or surpass them. I’m not holding my breath but if they can meet/surpass the D-750/780 system with more AF points that would I think be perfectly fine for 98% of people’s AF-C needs. Even better if it’s on par with the D500 which is regarded as one of the best BIF camera’s you can buy right now.

The D780 is a FF camera, so not really a suitable comparator. It has 51 AF points using the viewfinder and 273 in LV. The K3iii will have 101, though there is more to AF accuracy than number of AF points.

AF.C is important to me on APS-C, so I am watching with great anticipation. I hope for and expect great things.