[RobG]

No. When the K-1 is in crop mode, it's no different than an APS-C camera in terms of photographic output (dynamic range and sensor noise aside). If you use the same lens at the same aperture setting on a K-1 in crop mode and a K-3III, the bokeh will look the same. However, the K-3III will produce a higher resolution image from its ~26MP sensor compared to the K-1's ~16MP in crop (which is more-or-less equivalent to a K-5IIs). One potential downside, though, is that the K-3III will be more demanding of lens performance when viewing images at 100% reproduction...

One of the reason that I've been anxious to get my hands on the K3iii is to have a camera which is able to use the resolution which the DFA 150-450 can deliver. It is obviously able to deliver more resolution than the K3 (my current camera) can handle, so I'm not concerned about the performance of that specific lens (or even the HDDA 55-300 PLM which is my next most used lens other than the HDDA 16-85). So I got pretty excited when Pentax claimed to have improved IQ even at low ISO.

I'm going to have to do more research on the benefits of FF for the sake of curiosity. I thought I understood it, but now I'm not sure. For most of the photography I do, I really want the extra effective focal length I get from APSC. For that matter I should drag out the MZ5 and use up the couple of rolls of unused film I still own to see what some of my current lenses look like on a 35mm frame.

Not at all. The APS-C crop mode on the K-1 will just give you lower resolution images - but they are essentially APS-C images. Quite similar to what you'd get from a K-5IIs, given the sensor's characteristics. It doesn't even matter if you crop in camera or on your PC. The lens doesn't know nor care...

Sure, I understand that the lens doesn't know or care. I just need to understand better why people fought so hard for a FF sensor aside from the challenges of wide lenses on APSC.

I'm not sure about this demanding part; with the same lens, you should get more detail (or at least as much detail, for the worse lenses) on the higher resolution camera. Then, there's hoping for a more precise AF, which might be the largest improvement The pixels might look worse, but not the image.

Yes, I'm hoping for a more precise AF, but perhaps even the ability to achieve a focus lock faster than with the original K3 on the same lens. Many of the birds I want to photograph are small and move fast, so achieving a lock quickly is critical. One of the reasons I stopped using the DA*300 is that it tends to hunt to minimum focus first, while the DFA 150-450 does the opposite. I thought that I would use the focus limiter a lot on the DFA lens but not so much in practice because it doesn't hunt as much and focuses far faster. The lack of a focus limiter on the DA*300 and its tendency to hunt drove me crazy. I don't know if that default hunt direction is something which could be fixed in firmware. Optically the lens is amazing but if you can't focus then it's useless. I have the impression that the speed of AF on Pentax lenses is held back by the camera bodies in most cases but perhaps also by the lens firmware in others.

[BigMackCam]

Sure, I understand that the lens doesn't know or care. I just need to understand better why people fought so hard for a FF sensor aside from the challenges of wide lenses on APSC.

Two main reasons, Rob: (1) full field of view when using glass designed for 35mm film cameras, such that a huge range of legacy lenses can be enjoyed as originally intended, and (2) the improvement in sensor performance and resulting image quality typically demonstrated by a larger sensor compared to a smaller one of the same generation... Plus, a third reason: (3) for the same field of view, full frame offers greater scope for shallow depth-of-field compared to smaller sensors, subject to availability of lenses...

[RobG]

You guys are just toing and froing the little stuff..... when the big stuff is being overlooked..... like.... black or silver?

And I thought that the silver editions were a gimmick for the Japanese market (like the multicoloured DIY ones)!

---------- Post added 22-01-21 at 12:05 PM ----------

Two main reasons, Rob: (1) full field of view when using glass designed for 35mm film cameras, such that a huge range of legacy lenses can be enjoyed as originally intended, and (2) the improvement in sensor performance and resulting image quality typically demonstrated by a larger sensor compared to a smaller one of the same generation... Plus, a third reason: (3) for the same field of view, full frame offers greater scope for shallow depth-of-field compared to smaller sensors, subject to availability of lenses...

Sure, I get the first two points. It's the third that I need to understand in terms of optics. Having said that, wrt point 1, I haven't used any of my old lenses because of the IQ issue mentioned earlier. Even with film, scanning slides I took with a Makinon 28mm lens showed up chromatic aberration which I didn't notice before. Also the K-mount Chinon lens can't be used on any of the DSLR bodies.
FWIW, this video may explain the optics (I haven't watched the whole thing yet)

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

And this video gives a simple explanation of how to achieve the same image from a crop sensor as for a FF, but also why there comes a point with very large apertures that it becomes hard to achieve.

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

[Dieseler]

One of the reasons I stopped using the DA*300 is that it tends to hunt to minimum focus first, while the DFA 150-450 does the opposite. I thought that I would use the focus limiter a lot on the DFA lens but not so much in practice because it doesn't hunt as much and focuses far faster. The lack of a focus limiter on the DA*300 and its tendency to hunt drove me crazy. I don't know if that default hunt direction is something which could be fixed in firmware. Optically the lens is amazing but if you can't focus then it's useless. I have the impression that the speed of AF on Pentax lenses is held back by the camera bodies in most cases but perhaps also by the lens firmware in others.

Interesting.

Maybe that is the case on the K3 bodies (I think that is the one you are talking about as you also have a K5IIs listed in your sig?). My greatest bugbear with the DFA 150-450 lens is the way it always racks to minimum focus on my K5IIs if it misses focus. I wish it was the other way round. Guess I need to use the focus limiter more .

That suggests that the issue is with the body not the lens. I don't have the DA*300 lens to test that one.

Looking forward to reviews on the K3III to see the behaviour on that.

[reh321]

And I thought that the silver editions were a gimmick for the Japanese market (like the multicoloured DIY ones)!

My "ME/SE" and "Super Program" film cameras were not 'gimmicks' - and my wife at first thought I had left my "Super Program" out when my Silver KP arrived.
The Black cameras are the gimmicks - designed by an industrial designer who designed the Canon T90 nearly forty years ago.

[RobG]

Maybe that is the case on the K3 bodies (I think that is the one you are talking about as you also have a K5IIs listed in your sig?). My greatest bugbear with the DFA 150-450 lens is the way it always racks to minimum focus on my K5IIs if it misses focus. I wish it was the other way round. Guess I need to use the focus limiter more . That suggests that the issue is with the body not the lens. I don't have the DA*300 lens to test that one. Looking forward to reviews on the K3III to see the behaviour on that.

The AF on the K3 is so much better than the K5iis that I hardly use the K5iis anymore. Sometimes I'll put a wide lens or the DFA100 Macro on the K5iis and the big lens on the K3 so I don't need to swap lenses, but generally I'll carry the HDDA 16-85 and DFA 150-450 and swap lenses. From your experience it sounds like it's a camera AF behaviour rather than a lens behaviour which actually makes the solution easier - update the camera firmware. I wish I could pre-order the K3iii now, but I can't. I would be more than happy to test out the DFA 150-450 with it!

I have used the focus limiter a few times recently such as when I was photographing Terns at the beach, but most of the time I never know whether the subject will be near or far. Obviously I hope for near, in which case I don't want to accidentally leave the lens on 6m-infinity.

---------- Post added 22-01-21 at 03:00 PM ----------

My "ME/SE" and "Super Program" film cameras were not 'gimmicks' - and my wife at first thought I had left my "Super Program" out when my Silver KP arrived.
The Black cameras are the gimmicks - designed by an industrial designer who designed the Canon T90 nearly forty years ago.

OK, how about this one:


Pentax LX Gold Edition by RobGeraghty, on Flickr

I for one am glad that I don't have a shiny silver camera to scare the birds and animals away, but it's fine if people like the look of a silver camera. I'd buy one with a camouflage pattern if I could!

[reh321]

I for one am glad that I don't have a shiny silver camera to scare the birds and animals away, but it's fine if people like the look of a silver camera. I'd buy one with a camouflage pattern if I could!

You may get whatever look you want, but silver and black was routine until late in the film era, and it was not, has never been, a "gimmick".

[Gerbermiester]

OK, how about this one:


Pentax LX Gold Edition by RobGeraghty, on Flickr

Ahhh, my eyes! The kitsch, it's too much for mere mortals!

[JPT]

According to a former Pentax sales person, most of those gold cameras were sold to companies that wanted to give them as corporate hospitality to the presidents of their important client companies. This was back during the peak of Japan's economic growth, so this kind of extravagant gift was common. It's completely unthinkable now. He remembered selling a few of them personally. It's interesting that they are even gold plated on the mount of the camera and lens.

[Dieseler]

The AF on the K3 is so much better than the K5iis that I hardly use the K5iis anymore

Looking good for the AF on the K3III then, should be better again.

[RobG]

You may get whatever look you want, but silver and black was routine until late in the film era, and it was not, has never been, a "gimmick".

If you go back to the late film era, I agree, but in the DSLR era, black is the norm and silver is the exception, especially in Pentax DSLRs. To pretend otherwise is to ignore the fact that all of the silver editions I have seen in at least the last decade have been "special editions" released just before ending the production run of a model. You also ignored my reference to the choose-your-own Pentax DSLRs which were available in 120 colours in Japan (or this one) which are most definitely gimmicks aimed primarily at the Japanese market (hence 120 colours in Japan where you could choose your own combinations, but only a handful of colours elsewhere). In the case of the K3iii, Pentax has said that the camera will be available from the beginning in both silver and black, which is a departure from the past I described above.

Ahhh, my eyes! The kitsch, it's too much for mere mortals!

According to a former Pentax sales person, most of those gold cameras were sold to companies that wanted to give them as corporate hospitality to the presidents of their important client companies. This was back during the peak of Japan's economic growth, so this kind of extravagant gift was common. It's completely unthinkable now. He remembered selling a few of them personally. It's interesting that they are even gold plated on the mount of the camera and lens.

Sure, it's the sort of thing they did back then. I got to experience some of the extravagance of Japanese business in the 70's as a child when visiting businessmen closed Sydney's best Japanese restaurant for the night and brought the restaurant to our home.

Looking good for the AF on the K3III then, should be better again.

I think so, and I can't wait to find out! Think CRK could get me a pre-release to try?

[noelpolar]

For the record.... RMSS (Real Men Shoot Silver)...Hi Ho Silver.... away

[BigMackCam]

In the case of the K3iii, Pentax has said that the camera will be available from the beginning in both silver and black, which is a departure from the past I described above.

I think this practice of offering black and silver options at (or soon after) release started with the KP. Certainly, the silver KP seems to have been just as popular as the black...

[gatorguy]

I think this practice of offering black and silver options at (or soon after) release started with the KP. Certainly, the silver KP seems to have been just as popular as the black...

I believe it started with the K-70.

The "silver" K70 on the other hand was ugly IMHO. It's the color I originally choose, then sold within the first couple of weeks of owning it. In no way do the silver Limited's even remotely complement them. On the KP they look great!

[BigMackCam]

I believe it started with the K-70.

The "silver" K70 on the other hand was ugly IMHO. It's the color I originally choose, then sold within the first couple of weeks of owning it. In no way do the silver Limited's even remotely complement them. On the KP they look great!

Ah, yes... I forgot about the K-70 I didn't realise the shades of silver differed between the various bodies