[Larrymc]

Am I the only one who picked up on this?

Fantastic shot, Ian But the K-1 lost focus on the rider's eye, so... you know... it's not that great after all...

Yeah, but he got the bull's eye though!!

[clackers]

You frankly can’t say anything critical of Pentax in this safe space without getting dog piled by people who can’t stand anything negative being said about the brand.

What you say is *not true*, Lee.

Normhead is critical of Pentax's recent emphasis on big expensive hardware.

Kunzite is critical of Pentax's marketing, or absence of.

I'm critical of the historical aperture block issue of the entry level Pentaxes, to the point where I tried to assist a pee-ed off customer's legal team in their lawsuit.

So, it's every person on their merit and individual credibility/argument, right?

That's the way it should be.

Someone like Kerrowdown has 50,000 posts on this forum, 14,000 likes, and lots of actual photography I admire, so naturally I pay attention to him when he says something. He's just one example.

And enough with the 'other brands' schtick.

I and many other members shoot with other brands. I own as many Sony MILCs as I do Pentax DSLRs. I have a full kit of Canon EF mount glass, too. I've shot with Panny GH5, Sony A9 and IIIR, Canon 5D Mk IV, Nikon D5, etc, even a Hasselblad MF once.

[UncleVanya]

I’m a camera lover. I have multiple formats and brands. My dad started me on 35mm Yashica after my plastic 120 Arrow. Soon enough I was shooting Nikon. Meanwhile he went to work for Canon and Mom got an AE-1. Later he worked for Pentax and he adored his sample LX but bought me my F2a (Black). Still later I switched to a PZ-1 as the Nikon AF bodies didn’t appeal to me and his best friend was working for Pentax after leaving Nikon years before. I had a compact digital phase as well, but let’s not bring up dirty laundry. A chance Craigslist and a k100D Super with an 18-55 and 50-200 fell into my lap and y love of Pentax came roaring back. I currently own a k-3 and a KP and many lenses as well as m43 gear from Panasonic and Olympus and Sony FF gear.

What’s the point you say? I have only bought 3 cameras brand new in my life. All were Pentax. K-50... K-3... and now a KP. I love Pentax, but I’ve shot a lot of other systems. I have a pretty good feel for the advantages and failings of a lot of systems, I see gray more than black and white.

This forum also is far more civil than most. I know, I ran one for another hobby for many years. Civility is fragile however, and overmoderation can destroy trust, there is a thin path between these that results in a healthy place to discuss things. We are very lucky that the staff here stops runaway trains without making the place into a police state. This is a special house. I for one don’t mind drifting threads, and I don’t mind hearing why someone wants xyz or PDq. The most uncivil discussions I’ve seen were over a flippy screen. The passion of the players was palpable. Our tolerance of the differences we have is what sets us apart from so many outlets.

I’ve said my bit. Return to your regularly scheduled program.

[Kunzite]

You frankly can’t say anything critical of Pentax in this safe space without getting dog piled by people who can’t stand anything negative being said about the brand.

I made comments about an EVF due to people who are showing heavy bias toward OVF, because Pentax chose that route. They aren’t that bad. This forum gets a bit cult like at times. Other brands make great cameras too, I know that’s hard for some people. Back to the regular scheduled witch burning. Hang on I’ll drop the match at my feet and save the trouble.

I see both you and house are criticizing us right now... it feels like you're criticizing because you can't promote the mirrorless or whatever as much as you'd like, though.
5495
What's your something critical of Pentax? I see you're talking about EVFs so... continuing to make DSLRs rather than switching to mirrorless, is that it? This isn't "anything critical of Pentax", but quite a big thing.

What you should understand is that we don't have to be "impartial" in someone's eyes, which usually leads to an "inevitable" conclusion towards the "superior" electronic viewfinders and mirrorless technology. We've made a choice, and that choice is Pentax. Which means Pentax DSLRs.
What you call "bias" is really preference and choice. Surprisingly, we're entitled to ours.

Now... could we get back at trying to guess what Mr. Tetsuya Iwasaki could say at a panel named "What Mirrorless Brought to the Industry"? It could have been fun... if not taken so seriously!

[BigMackCam]

You frankly can’t say anything critical of Pentax in this safe space without getting dog piled by people who can’t stand anything negative being said about the brand.

I made comments about an EVF due to people who are showing heavy bias toward OVF, because Pentax chose that route. They aren’t that bad. This forum gets a bit cult like at times. Other brands make great cameras too, I know that’s hard for some people. Back to the regular scheduled witch burning. Hang on I’ll drop the match at my feet and save the trouble.

I don't recognise those characterisations of PentaxForums, Lee, so I'm genuinely sorry that's how you feel

Although I'm a Pentax enthusiast (and a largely happy one at that), I've been openly critical of the brand numerous times here in the past... I've raised concerns over the image accelerator and raw noise reduction in newer models, the K-30 / 50 / 70 and K-S1 / K-S2 aperture solenoid debacle, spare parts availability, aspects of the KP's specification when it was released, SDM motor failure, and I've even mentioned how I find EVFs preferable to OVFs for certain specific use cases, since I shoot both Pentax and Sony (and other brands, if I include my compact and bridge cameras). I'm sure I've raised other issues, too... after all, like most members here, I know full well that Pentax is far from perfect - and I've seen plenty of those members raise criticisms of the brand without things turning nasty.

I've had a few disagreements with other members over the years, but only a minority that escalated - and in all cases I have to take some responsibility because I was a willing and active participant in the discussions. I can be passionate, opinionated and stubborn, I know, and it occasionally gets me into trouble... so I try my best to be mindful of my audience, diplomatic, and - these days, at least - I strongly consider walking away when the points I'm making aren't being received well (especially by the majority) and I think the discussion has potential to turn emotional or personal. I don't like to fall out with other members if I can help it, and sometimes it's better just to step back if and when things get heated. It's even better still to step back while resisting the urge to take a parting shot, tempting though it may be

I recommend the above approach to anyone and everyone. It's got me this far relatively unscathed, in 11 years of membership and over 16,000 posts, so I'm sure there's something to it

I'll step out of this discussion now, but hope this final contribution might be of some small assistance...

[redpit]

I'm here just for news about the K-3iii now as I was mostly for news and reviews from fellow Pentaxians in the past waiting for the K-1 release or learning about lenses that interested me (the lens database of the PF is a real gem).
I can say now that I'm completely satisfied and covered by my Pentax equipment so I rarely post anymore and I don't get the brawl conditions some posters try to bring in some threads. I used to get involved but I find no point in this anymore. All I would like to say as a small piece of advice is that just express your opinion and don't try to impose it. There is no right or wrong as most of us have completely different photographic needs and preferences. Don't try to manipullate fellow members or get thumbs up or whatever you may think of other than express your opinion (even better with photo samples), educate or entertain us.

Anyway, when the K-3iii is released all of these disputes will be vain and I can't wait for that moment. Those of us that need such a "tool" will eventually get it and those who prefer a different set of "compromises" will get the camera from Pentax or other brand that best suits them. I'm sure I will be one of the early adopters as I did with my K-1 and I never regreted it! The K-3iii is the camera that I needed many years now to ideally complement my K-1 in some aspects I have found from personal experience that I would prefer the characteristics of a fast action APS-C camera.

[Serkevan]

You frankly can’t say anything critical of Pentax in this safe space without getting dog piled by people who can’t stand anything negative being said about the brand.

I made comments about an EVF due to people who are showing heavy bias toward OVF, because Pentax chose that route. They aren’t that bad. This forum gets a bit cult like at times. Other brands make great cameras too, I know that’s hard for some people. Back to the regular scheduled witch burning. Hang on I’ll drop the match at my feet and save the trouble.

Nah, all cameras nowadays take great images.


I personally can't stand EVFs (at least, not the 3.69MDot ones and definitely not lower than that. Maybe the 9MDot new ones on $4000+ cameras might be palatable, but I'm not spending that amount of cash in a camera any time soon ). As in, it's not "I can't see the advantages", it's "I physically have to look away from them within seconds if I so much as try to pan the camera".


This means that, sometimes, I would appreciate if people didn't feel the need to tell me that an OVF is a terrible, paleolithic idea (this has happened a couple times - and it's not directed at you at all, I know you haven't said anything of the sort).

[MMVIII]

You frankly can’t say anything critical of Pentax in this safe space without getting dog piled by people who can’t stand anything negative being said about the brand.

I made comments about an EVF due to people who are showing heavy bias toward OVF, because Pentax chose that route. They aren’t that bad. This forum gets a bit cult like at times. Other brands make great cameras too, I know that’s hard for some people. Back to the regular scheduled witch burning. Hang on I’ll drop the match at my feet and save the trouble.

I don't get what you want to say. People here are adults and in best case everyone knows its needs and necessities and can choose the equipment on this market of different offers according to that. Since this is a forum for users of Pentax equipment or, at least interested in exchange about just that, and the EVF is nothing that is provided by this company, the overlapping group of those that know that they absolutely need it for their photography and those contributing here is probably quite low. This does not mean noone here is aware of other equipment, some even cover some areas with two systems, it just happened that as educated consumers they chose what suits them best. The assumption that this is a religious or ideological attitude of members here or lack of information about other options might just be seen as patronising if not arrogant. And I can understand that.

Regarding EVF: if you want to know how good they are you just have to reverse read the announcements of the latest cameras, where they want to convince costumers that they have to buy the newest tool which finally overcame some of the problems of the last generation, which had just awful lag, blackout, to low frequency, flicker in artificial light, battery life issues, you name it, or, they name it in the announcement of the new 5000€ camera anyway

Edit: just saw that the latest is 7300,-€

[reh321]

Regarding EVF: if you want to know how good they are you just have to reverse read the announcements of the latest cameras, where they want to convince costumers that they have to buy the newest tool which finally overcame some of the problems of the latest generation, which had just awful lag, blackout, to low frequency, flicker in artificial light, battery life issues, you name it, or, they name it in the announcement of the new 5000€ camera anyway

Have you actually used one yourself to verify these problems with modern products?? They have made a lot of progress since the products of a few years ago.

I have used both Nikon Z7 and Canon M-50 products in stores with LCD lighting. Perhaps your eyes are very very sensitive eyes, but I have not noticed the problems you chatter about. In looking at customers walking around the store - I even asked an employee to walk when no customers were moving, for example - I saw absolutely no lag. The lights were not flickering.

[Serkevan]

Have you actually used one yourself to verify these problems with modern products?? They have made a lot of progress since the products of a few years ago.

I have used both Nikon Z7 and Canon M-50 products in stores with LCD lighting. Perhaps your eyes are very very sensitive eyes, but I have not noticed the problems you chatter about. In looking at customers walking around the store - I even asked an employee to walk when no customers were moving, for example - I saw absolutely no lag. The lights were not flickering.

I have.

They have certainly improved, but it's from "absolute horrendous invention that makes my old early 90s 640x480 CRT look like high tech" for the NEX-6 or the original A7 to "slightly better experience than my old early 90s CRT" (this with a Sony A7Riii or an EOS R). The image still loses resolution and streaks like crazy whenever you pan, so that's a non-starter for me as I like taking my time behind the finder when I'm taking photos.

If I wanted motion blur I'd leave it on in my computer games.

[reh321]

So, why are we down-talking about EVF yet again??

The only “EVF evangelists” who are singing praise are those who want flippy LCDs, which would become EVFs with the help of Hoodman.

Pentax is delivering fine, modern OVFs on the K-3iii.
Be glad and sing its praises.

[biz-engineer]

What you say is *not true*, Lee.

You see you disagreed

---------- Post added 28-01-21 at 15:00 ----------

I made comments about an EVF due to people who are showing heavy bias toward OVF, because Pentax chose that route. They aren’t that bad.

I full agree, EVF aren't that bad. That sentence alone says it all. There is another sentence I heard from DPReview , they said "EVF have been continuously improving, hoping to get closer to OVF somedays". Those sentences are unintentionally saying that EVF isn't as good as OVF. For me it's interesting to see people buying a new product technology that is supposed to be improved in the future hoping to get as good as the old tech we already have.

[MMVIII]

Have you actually used one yourself to verify these problems with modern products?? They have made a lot of progress since the products of a few years ago.

I have used both Nikon Z7 and Canon M-50 products in stores with LCD lighting. Perhaps your eyes are very very sensitive eyes, but I have not noticed the problems you chatter about. In looking at customers walking around the store - I even asked an employee to walk when no customers were moving, for example - I saw absolutely no lag. The lights were not flickering.

I don't think it should be the thread to discuss that. However, you might have seen a smiley following this paragraph. There might be some irony hidden in it. Maybe some sarcasm, who knows.

It is a natural thing that the better is the enemy of the good (a literal translation from German, but it might work here).
And I think that it IS ironic that marketing has to point out deficiencies of the "older" EVF to present the new as better. And since the development goes quickly in this area the "good" is "old" very soon.
(to sum it up, I don't think this technology is mature, which does not mean I would not buy it if I would need it now; regardless of my personal preference for prism viewfinders that suit my use case perfectly)

Edit: what biz-engineer said!

[ffking]

I really hope that both sides of the disagreement over the last page or so are listening to each other and understanding the other's point of view because it's been quite a valuable exchange IMHO in that regard. I think, as so often, Mike is right about why Pentax enthusiasts get annoyed by a lot of the MILC talk - speaking as a Pentax loyalist who is fully aware of Pentax's shortcomings but stays with the brand because what it offers me outweighs the shortcomings, I do find myself having to count to ten sometimes before (preferably not) responding to some comments about the virtues of other systems not because those aren't real but because they are misplaced and come across as a criticism of people who chose to stay with Pentax - but that sense of being slapped down for saying anything against Pentax is also very real among quite a few members. As I say, I try to check myself before responding, and this exchange has been valuable to me at least in appreciating the 'other side's' feelings.

[Serkevan]

I really hope that both sides of the disagreement over the last page or so are listening to each other and understanding the other's point of view because it's been quite a valuable exchange IMHO in that regard. I think, as so often, Mike is right about why Pentax enthusiasts get annoyed by a lot of the MILC talk - speaking as a Pentax loyalist who is fully aware of Pentax's shortcomings but stays with the brand because what it offers me outweighs the shortcomings, I do find myself having to count to ten sometimes before (preferably not) responding to some comments about the virtues of other systems not because those aren't real but because they are misplaced and come across as a criticism of people who chose to stay with Pentax - but that sense of being slapped down for saying anything against Pentax is also very real among quite a few members. As I say, I try to check myself before responding, and this exchange has been valuable to me at least in appreciating the 'other side's' feelings.

I am - I understand all the advantages of the EVF.

I just cannot take advantage of them because the disadvantages are absolute, physical, dealbreakers to me. And I would appreciate it if the market (Pentax committing to the OVF is a relief) didn't force me to abandon photography because of not being able to "get on with the times".