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02-22-2021, 09:39 AM   #406
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
What functionality did you lose from your M42 lenses on K body compared to M42 lens on M42 body ?
What did an FD lens lose functionality on an EOS body ?

Not comparable AT ALL. IMO.
Did they ever get open aperture metering on M42? I was using Nikon at that time. My only exposure to M42 cameras was my dad's Spotmatic 2.

02-22-2021, 09:51 AM   #407
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Did they ever get open aperture metering on M42? I was using Nikon at that time. My only exposure to M42 cameras was my dad's Spotmatic 2.
Yes. The last generation of SMC Takumars would open aperture meter on the last generation of Pentax M42 bodies using a similar scheme to what K-mount does.

-Eric
02-22-2021, 09:55 AM - 1 Like   #408
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QuoteOriginally posted by tibbitts Quote
Although I no longer have relevant bodies and lenses, and it was a long time ago but my recollection is:

1. M42 lenses to K. All my SMCT M42 lenses provided open aperture metering on my SFP/ES-era bodies and I believe that functionality was lost with the M42 adapter. I wouldn't have considered buying M42 before the ES/SPF/SMCT open-aperture metering era (although I reluctantly did stop-down metering with my SMCT lenses and ST801, which was probably better at it than the comparable-level Pentax K-mount bodies would have been.) I had had open-aperture metering for years before buying a Pentax and didn't want to go back to (literally) the dark ages.

2. FD lenses to EOS bodies: I never did this because I considered all my FD lenses were useless on EOS bodies. It was why I didn't consider purchasing another Canon, although their odd-sized APS sensor in the digital era reinforced that notion.) I believe Canon had an adapter/teleconverter for longer lenses but I never used it as it only made sense for longer L lenses that I didn't have.

3. EOS lenses to R lenses: as far as I know, no functionality is lost at all. If true (and I have no personal experience), then of the three this (and Nikon's Z migration, although I hear grumblings of tripod-mounting issues) is obviously the best of the three situations.
It appears that it has taken Canon 36 years to figure out that screwing their customer base was, perhaps, a bit unwise?
Or, and this is more likely, they will figure out some other way to screw their EF users.
If they notice RF lens sales are too slow, do you think they will keep their adaptor in the line up?
Or do you think they will release an update that bricks RF cameras when an EF lens is mounted?
I'm betting it will be one or the other. Canon needs to be very interested in ensuring that they sell lenses, not just camera bodies and adapters.
If their adapter allows absolutely seamless use of EF lenses, it will be a very short term solution, probably limited to the first generation of RF bodies. Their shareholders won't stand for anything else.
02-22-2021, 10:04 AM   #409
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
If their adapter allows absolutely seamless use of EF lenses, it will be a very short term solution, probably limited to the first generation of RF bodies. Their shareholders won't stand for anything else.
Sony not long ago released an adapter that allows AI-augumented on sensor PDAF to work with Minolta screw drive lenses. And it only works with the newest bodies.

02-22-2021, 10:09 AM - 2 Likes   #410
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QuoteOriginally posted by TwoUptons Quote
Yes. The last generation of SMC Takumars would open aperture meter on the last generation of Pentax M42 bodies using a similar scheme to what K-mount does.

-Eric
So if you had a second to last or prior generation of M42 body and decided to go K-mount, you weren't really losing any operating functions?
It's good that Canon appears for the moment at least to have a semblance of lens backwards comparability, but they have the advantage of modern electronics to thank for it, something that wasn't available to Pentax in 1975, or Canon 10 years later.
The compatability argument is very disingenuous as it ignores the technical realities of the various eras of manufacture.
Nikon is a great example of a compatability minefield. When they released their AI lenses, they made it impossible to even mount older lenses on most of their cameras until they had been physically modified, either by having new aperture rings put on or by filing down the rings that were on the camera.
I saw a number of butchered aperture rings that wouldn't meter accurately anymore because the filing wasn't perfectly accurate.
Imagine being in a situation where you had to remember how far to bias exposure for each of your lenses because they all metered differently. That was the reality for many Nikon users.
02-22-2021, 11:16 AM   #411
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
So if you had a second to last or prior generation of M42 body and decided to go K-mount, you weren't really losing any operating functions?
Correct. However, if you had not even considered buying a Pentax camera before the SMCT generation precisely because Pentax was behind on providing open-aperture metering, and viewed the new technology as being the way forward for Pentax - basically that in buying those SMCTs you were getting in on the beginning of a new generation - then the introduction of the K-mount after such a short time was undeniably a kick in the teeth. A major reason you had chosen Pentax was being taken away if you upgraded to any newer body, and you wouldn't be able to take advantage of any new lens development.
02-22-2021, 12:01 PM - 4 Likes   #412
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QuoteOriginally posted by tibbitts Quote
Correct. However, if you had not even considered buying a Pentax camera before the SMCT generation precisely because Pentax was behind on providing open-aperture metering, and viewed the new technology as being the way forward for Pentax - basically that in buying those SMCTs you were getting in on the beginning of a new generation - then the introduction of the K-mount after such a short time was undeniably a kick in the teeth. A major reason you had chosen Pentax was being taken away if you upgraded to any newer body, and you wouldn't be able to take advantage of any new lens development.
Some of us just buy a new camera when we need one. We don't get inflamed about imagined kicks in the teeth and stuff like that.


Last edited by normhead; 02-22-2021 at 02:12 PM.
02-22-2021, 12:23 PM   #413
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
It appears that it has taken Canon 36 years to figure out that screwing their customer base was, perhaps, a bit unwise?
Or, and this is more likely, they will figure out some other way to screw their EF users.
If they notice RF lens sales are too slow, do you think they will keep their adaptor in the line up?
Or do you think they will release an update that bricks RF cameras when an EF lens is mounted?
I'm betting it will be one or the other. Canon needs to be very interested in ensuring that they sell lenses, not just camera bodies and adapters.
If their adapter allows absolutely seamless use of EF lenses, it will be a very short term solution, probably limited to the first generation of RF bodies. Their shareholders won't stand for anything else.
They have not "screwed" anything or anybody in the AF age.
Their adapters have allowed seamless use of EF lenses since their first M-mount, which is about six or seven years ago.
Their customers wouldn't accept anything less - and they pay attention to their customers {they are source of money they give to their shareholders}.
02-22-2021, 12:28 PM   #414
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QuoteOriginally posted by tibbitts Quote
Correct. However, if you had not even considered buying a Pentax camera before the SMCT generation precisely because Pentax was behind on providing open-aperture metering, and viewed the new technology as being the way forward for Pentax - basically that in buying those SMCTs you were getting in on the beginning of a new generation - then the introduction of the K-mount after such a short time was undeniably a kick in the teeth. A major reason you had chosen Pentax was being taken away if you upgraded to any newer body, and you wouldn't be able to take advantage of any new lens development.
A simple ring adapter was all that was needed to use the old {M42-mount} lenses on newer {K-mount} bodies.
Pentax made the switch as easy as possible - and that was over fifty years ago.
02-22-2021, 12:44 PM - 1 Like   #415
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
They have not "screwed" anything or anybody in the AF age.
Their adapters have allowed seamless use of EF lenses since their first M-mount, which is about six or seven years ago.
Their customers wouldn't accept anything less - and they pay attention to their customers {they are source of money they give to their shareholders}.
They haven't screwed anyone yet.
They did force their customers to accept significant screwage in the late 1980s, so I think saying their customers wouldn't accept anything less requires a significant amount of revisionist history writing.
They did it once and got away with it. There is no reason to think they wouldn't do it again if they felt they could get away with it.
02-22-2021, 12:48 PM   #416
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QuoteOriginally posted by TwoUptons Quote
Yes. The last generation of SMC Takumars would open aperture meter on the last generation of Pentax M42 bodies using a similar scheme to what K-mount does.

-Eric
The Spotmatic F, ES and ESII were the only M42 bodies to have full aperture metering, I think. I still have my SP-F and ESII.
02-22-2021, 12:59 PM   #417
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
So if you had a second to last or prior generation of M42 body and decided to go K-mount, you weren't really losing any operating functions?.
If you had one of the 3 open aperture M42 bodies and went K-mount you had to go back to stop down metering unless you bought K-mount lenses. But you could at least use your M42 lenses with a cheap uncorrected adapter.
02-22-2021, 01:02 PM - 1 Like   #418
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QuoteOriginally posted by tibbitts Quote
Correct. However, if you had not even considered buying a Pentax camera before the SMCT generation precisely because Pentax was behind on providing open-aperture metering, and viewed the new technology as being the way forward for Pentax - basically that in buying those SMCTs you were getting in on the beginning of a new generation - then the introduction of the K-mount after such a short time was undeniably a kick in the teeth. A major reason you had chosen Pentax was being taken away if you upgraded to any newer body, and you wouldn't be able to take advantage of any new lens development.
Nothing is perfect. What they didn't do, however, was make whatever lenses you had into expensive paperweights, which was the Canon approach, and to a certain extent the Nikon way.
IIRC, with Nikon, you had 3 choices with regards to non AI lenses.
1) Stop using them.
2) Pay to have them modified.
3) Buy one of the higher end bodies such as the F3 that had the flip up coupling lever. This allowed one to use the lens, but without access to open aperture metering or aperture preferred automatic.

Nikon just got worse from there, with lenses that would mount, but bodies that were bricks with those lenses.

Even Minolta did better than Canikon. When they went AF, they continued to support the SR/MC/MD mount until they were bought by Konica and lost control of the company.

A kick in the teeth would have been the Canon approach.
What Pentax did when they transitioned from M42 to bayonet was at worst, an inconvenience for a small portion of the user base, not a total abandonment of it.
If you want to use pain metaphors, Pentax was more like a stubbed toe than getting one's teeth kicked down one's throat.
02-22-2021, 01:09 PM - 2 Likes   #419
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Nothing is perfect. What they didn't do, however, was make whatever lenses you had into expensive paperweights, which was the Canon approach, and to a certain extent the Nikon way.
IIRC, with Nikon, you had 3 choices with regards to non AI lenses.
1) Stop using them.
2) Pay to have them modified.
3) Buy one of the higher end bodies such as the F3 that had the flip up coupling lever. This allowed one to use the lens, but without access to open aperture metering or aperture preferred automatic.

Nikon just got worse from there, with lenses that would mount, but bodies that were bricks with those lenses.

Even Minolta did better than Canikon. When they went AF, they continued to support the SR/MC/MD mount until they were bought by Konica and lost control of the company.

A kick in the teeth would have been the Canon approach.
What Pentax did when they transitioned from M42 to bayonet was at worst, an inconvenience for a small portion of the user base, not a total abandonment of it.
If you want to use pain metaphors, Pentax was more like a stubbed toe than getting one's teeth kicked down one's throat.
Honestly, I wouldn't foresee Canon doing anything to screw up the EOS lenses on their mirrorless cameras. The issue is that Sony and Nikon have adapters that allow for pretty seamless porting of those lenses to their mirrorless mounts and so it would be a major blow against them if Canon did anything to screw that up. I wasn't around with the FD to EOS mount transition and so I can't comment on it, but I doubt Canon would do anything similar now.
02-22-2021, 01:28 PM   #420
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
They haven't screwed anyone yet.
They did force their customers to accept significant screwage in the late 1980s, so I think saying their customers wouldn't accept anything less requires a significant amount of revisionist history writing.
They did it once and got away with it. There is no reason to think they wouldn't do it again if they felt they could get away with it.
The difference between manual focus and AF is much bigger than from DSLRs to MILCs, I'd say. Not only that, FD lenses stopped mounting more or less anywhere after Canon shafted the customers - you wanted to keep shooting, you had to get another system, whichever it was.

If you want to keep shooting EF lenses, even assuming Canon exploded yesterday, you slap them on an adapter and put them on [Name a MILC system] with [name a third party adapter], where they work fine and dandy. EF lenses are all the equivalent of KAF4 so the adapters aren't even that complicated to make.


I don't doubt that, if they saw a way to get more profit, they'd go for it. But they can't get more profit by shafting the consumers this time. They could in 1987, but today it's impossible.

---------- Post added 02-22-21 at 01:29 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Honestly, I wouldn't foresee Canon doing anything to screw up the EOS lenses on their mirrorless cameras. The issue is that Sony and Nikon have adapters that allow for pretty seamless porting of those lenses to their mirrorless mounts and so it would be a major blow against them if Canon did anything to screw that up. I wasn't around with the FD to EOS mount transition and so I can't comment on it, but I doubt Canon would do anything similar now.
Not only that, third party adapters work with EF lenses to other bodies very well... so Canon would just be losing out on body sales.
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