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03-15-2021, 07:26 AM - 1 Like   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
Who said they should make a new mirrorless system?



I am not discussing the usefulness of APS-C.

Market shares for Pentax are shrinking and there is no profitability anymore. That's the point of the current discussion. The current situation is not sustainable. A new DSLR body probably will not be sufficient to turn things around, even if it proves popular (which I hope it will).
We will see that in couple of yrs. Pentax is small player to begin with, but big enough for many things.

03-15-2021, 07:29 AM - 2 Likes   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
This is all interesting, or not.
Do you relate APSC just to Pentax, or does it include the GR, which seems to be doing just fine, or to the whole market, just thinking of Fuji offering only in this format (and MF...)?
It's good to be skeptical.

I attended the k3iii experience meeting two months ago, and few users used APSC cameras in the activity. Yes, almost all of them are K1 and p645 users (I am also K1 and APSC users). They all feel sorry for this machine and think that if it is FF, the sales volume will be much higher. I try to explain repeatedly the advantages of APSC and where k3iii is improved compared to k1ii. However, the reaction was surprisingly consistent: if it was k1iii, it would be bought immediately, but it was not.

In fact, users who like APSC cameras exist objectively. But Pentax's new APSC camera didn't change the status. For example, KP, which has just stopped production. Although everyone thinks KP is a good machine, Ricoh decided to stop its development because KP's sales are not ideal.

So the question is not only that the sales of APSC cameras are shrinking, but whether the exist objectively APSC users can support the Pentax to continue the product line and keep profits.

If not, how does Pentax survive? Ricoh's blood transfusion?

I tried to find the latest camera sales figures. There are objective users who buy APSC, but the proportion is getting lower and lower. These data are telling me the cruel reality.

Last edited by Parallax; 03-15-2021 at 03:37 PM.
03-15-2021, 07:33 AM   #243
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
But younger users should consider this.

Unless there is a large price difference, they should consider getting “FF” lenses even if they have only “APS-C” cameras right now.
In truth, “APS-C” cameras were constructed once because “APS-C” sensors were clearly cheaper.
Now, there is little reason to manufacture them.
Sure, the obvious reason are either you are stuck with your mount to APS-C like Fuji or you produce a camera that caters some of the advantages of the smaller sensor: more "reach" for fast tele and action photography, as the K-3III is doing.
The latter might become even more attractive as m43 was addressing this with special high speed (and expensive) cameras. I'm pretty sure a K-3III could replace an Olympus tele system, even with the existing lenses. These lenses will also not be any different from FF lenses, as the advantage of a smaller image circle would be minimal.
I don't know in how far people are abandoning Olympus but if APS-C is declining m43 must be dead already. The only (still) active camera catering this would be the D500, but I would not see a bright future for that too at the moment. Sorry Chris.
03-15-2021, 07:34 AM - 2 Likes   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by lemono Quote
I tried to find the latest camera sales figures. There are objective users who buy APSC, but the proportion is getting lower and lower. These data are telling me the cruel reality.
That would mean Fujifilm is in one serious trouble, wouldn't it?

03-15-2021, 07:35 AM - 1 Like   #245
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If I were the CEO of Ricoh - and there are MANY.MANY good reasons why I'm not, I think that I'd try to keep the camera division going as long as I could. This would probably mean being more definite and positive about the future of the products and investing a bit more, but once it;s gone, it's gone, and there's no way back. If Ricoh, with a long history of camera making, can't make it work, then no venture capital or whatever is going to - the name might still be there, but the product would be unrecognisable - and no other camera maker is going to be interested in anything much other than patents.

Obviously if greater investment just means greater losses, they have to think again, but as they stand, they risk disappearing by default through lack of confidence in the future of the brand(s) (brought on by lack of energy and determination).They have enunciated a vision for Pentax, and if they should at least try to ride out the MILC craze. The volume of DSLR's will never be what it once was (which was inflated anyway in the early days), but there will always have a place for a quality product that is a pleasure to use.

Last edited by ffking; 03-16-2021 at 06:34 AM. Reason: typo
03-15-2021, 07:36 AM - 1 Like   #246
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarneyL Quote
That would mean Fujifilm is in one serious trouble, wouldn't it?
I guess we'll find out how the same logic applies differently to different manufacturers
With Pentax, it's always doom.
03-15-2021, 07:37 AM - 1 Like   #247
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QuoteOriginally posted by lemono Quote
It's good to be skeptical.

I attended the k3iii experience meeting two months ago, and few users used APSC cameras in the activity. Yes, almost all of them are K1 and p645 users (I am also K1 and APSC users). They all feel sorry for this machine and think that if it is FF, the sales volume will be much higher. I try to explain repeatedly the advantages of APSC and where k3iii is improved compared to k1ii. However, the reaction was surprisingly consistent: if it was k1iii, it would be bought immediately, but it was not.

In fact, users who like APSC cameras exist objectively. But Pentax's new APSC camera didn't change the status. For example, KP, which has just stopped production. Although everyone thinks KP is a good machine, Ricoh decided to stop its development because KP's sales are not ideal.

So the question is not only that the sales of APSC cameras are shrinking, but whether the exist objectively APSC users can support the Pentax to continue the product line and keep profits.

If not, how does Pentax survive? Ricoh's blood transfusion?

I tried to find the latest camera sales figures. There are objective users who buy APSC, but the proportion is getting lower and lower. These data are telling me the cruel reality.
I'm pretty sure the numbers of bought systems correspond perfectly with the numbers of newly announced cameras in this period.
How many new APS-C cameras came to the market in the last two years? How many FF?

03-15-2021, 07:39 AM   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarneyL Quote
That would mean Fujifilm is in one serious trouble, wouldn't it?
Fuji seems to exist somewhat outside of the conventional camera world; they've done a great job cultivating a particular culture with the X-mount.

Also, they are buoyed by the massive success of Instax.
03-15-2021, 07:41 AM - 5 Likes   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
This is all interesting, or not. I don't know what a user with under 30 postings really has to offer. No offense, but allow me to be skeptical.
Lemono claims to have a special view of the market.
We should at least consider his views until some of them have time to work out.
Talking here does not mean that someone knows things worth listening to.
03-15-2021, 07:42 AM - 1 Like   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by troenaas Quote
Pentax's DSLR market share shrunk from 3.1 % to 3 % during the past year. BCN Ranking published 2020 Japanese camera market share report - Nikon Rumors
From the article you cite:

QuoteQuote:
BCN Ranking collects real sales data only from approximately 40% of the Japanese retailers.
That's hardly "DSLR market share". That "market share" is from select consumer electronics retailers in Japan, and not even half of the total Japanese market.
03-15-2021, 07:43 AM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarneyL Quote
That would mean Fujifilm is in one serious trouble, wouldn't it?
Fuji's product strategy is more like Internet products, so even if it loses money every year, it still continues.
And at the same time, Fuji's image Department relies on the support of Instax, which is totally different from other manufacturers.
03-15-2021, 07:45 AM   #252
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
That's hardly "DSLR market share". That "market share" is from select consumer electronics retailers in Japan, and not even half of the total Japanese market.
It's an indication.
03-15-2021, 07:48 AM   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by lemono Quote
The launch date and price of K3III has been internal designated. I really don't understand why there is a dispute about whether to release or not.
But it is also a reality that there is no plan of camera after K3III.In fact, the current situation of K3III has a strong relationship with Ricoh's internal problems.
I hope you are correct, however to suspend the release at the last minute I think is a significant indicator that something is undecided about K3ii's future (or Pentax's future with Ricoh). I do not believe it is solely a parts issue.
03-15-2021, 07:49 AM - 1 Like   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
Whatever has truly been going on behind the scenes at Ricoh (who can really tell?), the fact that the K3III was delayed after leading up to its release for quite some time, with an official development announcement, video's, specifications published etc., indicates that there have to be uncertainties around Pentax' fate at Ricoh. After being súch an endless wait already, this felt rather as a knockout blow for the patience of Pentax shooters except perhaps for the hardened core of the remaining fan base of traditional Pentax shooters.
A large components factory is Japan burned down back in October, causing delays in various electronics products. Sony has suspended a number of cameras because of this.


QuoteQuote:
From that perspective, an outside take-over with partnership and investment would be the only remaining option for Pentax to endure in the declining camera market. But unlike Olympus, that at least has something of a future proof system, Pentax only has a system on offer that is being fased out at a massive pace currently.
Olympus (photography) is no more.
03-15-2021, 07:50 AM - 1 Like   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by lemono Quote
Yes, almost all of them are K1 and p645 users (I am also K1 and APSC users).
If almost all of them are K1 and p645 users, and currently don't own a KP, K3II, K3 or earlier versions of Pentax APSC. They are probably not target customers for the new K3III.
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