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03-25-2021, 03:43 AM - 1 Like   #466
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Well, the cheapest new iphone here is $900 and I see lots of people with new looking iphones. Beats me why. My cheap samsung smartphone works well enough. I think many (especially younger) people see an iphone as a "must have", no matter the cost.
Most of my friends buy phones in the ~300-400€ range*. At that price point you basically get a Xiaomi that is almost as good as an iPhone in terms of... kinda everything that you might want a phone for.
They buy said phones (I have a <200€ policy) because of the cameras - it's trivial to get decent enough snaps for Instagram and having a 3- or 4-lens setup with a 13mm equivalent (I don't even have THAT wide ), a normal lens and maybe a macro in addition to the standard "wide" camera does give them a lot of options.

Everyone still drops their jaw when I go ham with the K-1 and show off all the fine details, though

*though I know some who have iPhones, they just want iOS over Android, so they tend to buy older gens at discounted prices. For example my ex is on her third iPhone 6s - she got the last one refurbished with 1-year warranty for a bit under 200€. Reason being it's the last non-ridiculously sized iPhone.

03-25-2021, 05:45 AM - 1 Like   #467
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
But they'll happily pay $1000+ every two years for a new phone.
I don't think that many people spend that much for a phone. Most buy a mid-range phone once every 2, 3, 4 years, whenever the old one dies or breaks. I've had a Google Pixel 1 for almost five years.

But the ones that do spend that, I'd guess the large majority (at least in the US) have fallen into the car dealer model. Verizon defaults to showing monthly payments on their site, you have to change the display choices to see the total cost. So even a $2000 Samsung Galaxy ZFold2 5G is "only" $50 a month for 30 months at 0% interest (of course that math doesn't make any sense... the displayed price is with an $800 credit for a new line. Which still doesn't add up, so I really can't tell you what it would cost me.) In any case, it's like car salesmen who try their level best to never tell you exactly what this is going to cost. Just that's it's a small monthly payment that'll easily fit into your budget.

I suppose some camera manufacturers have done something like this, but maybe they'd sell more units if the K-3iii was advertised as only $45 a month for 36 months at 0% interest. They'd still have to overcome the fact that the phone is already costing them that much and it already has a camera that covers most (if not all) of what most people want to do.
03-25-2021, 05:55 AM - 1 Like   #468
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I wanted to say, if I'm allowed to, that the moderation of this site over the past month has been the best I've seen it in 10 years. You guys have let conversations roll a lot more than previously yet still step in when needed to. It's much appreciated.
Well, glad you feel that way since you've been here a long time. But things have gotten close many times....lots of warnings.
03-25-2021, 06:18 AM   #469
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
I don't think that many people spend that much for a phone. Most buy a mid-range phone once every 2, 3, 4 years, whenever the old one dies or breaks. I've had a Google Pixel 1 for almost five years.

But the ones that do spend that, I'd guess the large majority (at least in the US) have fallen into the car dealer model. Verizon defaults to showing monthly payments on their site, you have to change the display choices to see the total cost. So even a $2000 Samsung Galaxy ZFold2 5G is "only" $50 a month for 30 months at 0% interest (of course that math doesn't make any sense... the displayed price is with an $800 credit for a new line. Which still doesn't add up, so I really can't tell you what it would cost me.) In any case, it's like car salesmen who try their level best to never tell you exactly what this is going to cost. Just that's it's a small monthly payment that'll easily fit into your budget.

I suppose some camera manufacturers have done something like this, but maybe they'd sell more units if the K-3iii was advertised as only $45 a month for 36 months at 0% interest. They'd still have to overcome the fact that the phone is already costing them that much and it already has a camera that covers most (if not all) of what most people want to do.
Beyond silly monthly installments to own, I'm actually kind of surprised at least one hasn't tried the rental/lease option on cameras.

03-25-2021, 06:40 AM - 1 Like   #470
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Beyond silly monthly installments to own, I'm actually kind of surprised at least one hasn't tried the rental/lease option on cameras.
Leases make sense for car companies because of a robust used market. BMW will lease you a 3-series for $600 a month plus $5000 down or whatever, then get back a 3-year-old car that they can turn around and sell for $30k. So they've netted $56k for a car that retails for $40k-something.

Pentax could lease you a K-3iii for $40 a month for three years, with $200 down. You sign an agreement that you won't go over 5000 clicks a year. Then they get it back and sell the camera used for $700. And they've gotten over $2300 for a camera that would sell new for, say, $1750. I'm not sure why that's not more of a thing.
03-25-2021, 06:44 AM - 1 Like   #471
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Well, the cheapest new iphone here is $900 and I see lots of people with new looking iphones. Beats me why. My cheap samsung smartphone works well enough. I think many (especially younger) people see an iphone as a "must have", no matter the cost.
I got my wife a 300-ish dollar unlocked iphone 8 (new with a warranty) off of e bay last year. Seems fine. Of course it doesn't have the newest camera or any of those sorts of things, but it works for her purposes.
03-25-2021, 06:50 AM - 2 Likes   #472
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
A dozen of my friend bought a DSLR as upgrade to their compact camera, hoping to become a better photographer. Now they use smartphone, still have a DSLR, never use it, and no interest in a mirrorless camera, way too expensive for taking pictures. I can look at 100 people in my contact list, gives me a rough hint about camera market. The number of people interested in photography and willing to spend more than say $500, is.. sadly, something like less than 5 people out of a 100. Maybe 20 out of 100 would buy a dedicated camera for casual use if it is very good and cost less than $500, which is out of the ILC radar. The split is much more pronounced with younger generations (e.g folks who never heard of Pentax in their entire life).
Yes and cell phone technically along with mirrorless tech is only going to advance and get better.

---------- Post added 03-25-21 at 06:51 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
But they'll happily pay $1000+ every two years for a new phone.
No, a 1000.00 for a portable computer.

03-25-2021, 09:30 AM   #473
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Sure - but that's the thing: manufacturers that have spent more than a decade fueling a bubble cannot survive on mature systems alone. Not to mention that spec-sheet monster MILCs have bigger numbers than any DSLR has ever had.*
This is due to the big boy's moove from DSLRs to MILCs and has nothing to do - mostly - with imaging technology that remains the same for both systems categories (set aside the mirror latence and AF coverage constraints for DSLRs).

---------- Post added 25-03-21 at 09:33 ----------

It will be *interesting* to see how the marketshares evolves - provided DSLRs are still produced - in a few years when it becomes obvious for intensive users that MILCs do have a technical obsolescence disadvantage.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 03-25-2021 at 09:36 AM.
03-25-2021, 09:42 AM   #474
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The question is, how much new development will happen, for both Canon EF and Nikon F? I don't think we'll see a new 7D, or a D500 replacement - rather, there will be mirrorless equivalents.
I think with Canon, for sure, the SLR is not going to be in the catalog for much longer. They will forcer their users into mirrorless, and if you want to use legacy lenses, buy an adapter.
03-25-2021, 10:47 AM - 2 Likes   #475
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So, with respect to all the sturm und drang about the K3III delay, how it's not really coming, how the delay is an indication that Pentax is doomed, and yada yada : it appears it is being released now in Japan and will be elsewhere within a week (on our forums here in the News and Rumors section, and on Pentax Rumors). I'm warming up the crow for some folks....

Kidding aside, wouldn't it have been a lot better all around if Pentax/Ricoh had been a little more specific/thoughtful in their utterances about the delay and the release? I think so. Underscores the continuing PR problems that plague the company. Whoppa' blind spot there. Why can't we have a CEO like Sigma? Check out their new video for the just announced fpL....
03-25-2021, 12:46 PM   #476
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
So, with respect to all the sturm und drang about the K3III delay, how it's not really coming, how the delay is an indication that Pentax is doomed, and yada yada : it appears it is being released now in Japan and will be elsewhere within a week (on our forums here in the News and Rumors section, and on Pentax Rumors). I'm warming up the crow for some folks....

Kidding aside, wouldn't it have been a lot better all around if Pentax/Ricoh had been a little more specific/thoughtful in their utterances about the delay and the release? I think so. Underscores the continuing PR problems that plague the company. Whoppa' blind spot there. Why can't we have a CEO like Sigma? Check out their new video for the just announced fpL....
Damn Sigma enabled save/load/share of camera settings. Pentax should have been first!
03-25-2021, 12:49 PM   #477
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
I'm warming up the crow for some folks....
That's the way I like 'em
03-25-2021, 05:17 PM   #478
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Used-market is also an important driver (id est a strongly growing market) for today's gear sales, mainly concerning DSLRs.

And this could - together with the global volume decline trend - also be (very) bad news for MILC's market strategists in the near future / medium term. Simply because the longterm DSLR's gear usability might remain superior to that of MILCs, of which image quality gain promise will not differenciate enough passing the technerd/ostentatory "whaou" period.
03-25-2021, 09:23 PM   #479
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't think many people spend that sort of money on their phone. Most people aren't buying the top end stuff (obviously some are) and they are making their phones last as long as they can.

Obviously (just as with cameras) there are some gear heads out there that always have to have the newest phone, but there aren't as many as you would guess.
I look at the phones hanging out of the back pockets of a lot of younger people, and the ones they inevitably wield in restaurants. Whilst I agree that they’re undoubtedly in the minority overall, those are clearly the ones with enough money to choose what they spend it on, and they don’t spend it on a lot of single-purpose devices, because what they have they judge to be good enough.

I don’t fall into that demographic in a number of ways, and my phone is a good five years old, and still fit for purpose, by the way.

Still, I was actually talking about the people who can afford something better* than a phone camera. Also, income distributions vary from place to place, within and between countries.

* Let’s not go into what constitutes “better”. I don’t think any of us would be here if we thought we couldn’t take a better photo with a dedicated camera.
03-26-2021, 02:12 AM   #480
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I got my wife a 300-ish dollar unlocked iphone 8 (new with a warranty) off of e bay last year. Seems fine. Of course it doesn't have the newest camera or any of those sorts of things, but it works for her purposes.
Yeah, but if you add another 400$ for a compact camera or for a bridge or a second hand mirrorless/DSLR, you end up spending 700$+ and you would need to carry the camera with you on each vacation. Additionally, you would need to edit the images from cameras while on mobile phones you just apply some filters and the images are good to go on social media. Not to mention video which looks quite good on smarphones compared to cheap DSLRs or mirrorless cameras. That's why lots and lots of people tend to pay 700-1000$ for a smartphone and use it as a portable computer, as a portable gaming device, as a portable music player and as a photography/videography gear. These days it's more practical in my opinion a smartphone at 1000$ than a smartphone at 300$ and a compact/bridge/DSLR/mirrorless camera at 400-600$ with the kit lens.
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