The challenge of the new Pentaprism

**RobA_Oz** · 05-06-2021, 03:07 PM

Judging from the references to the difficulty of making the prism from the glass, we can probably assume that making the glass block in the first place was also difficult, due to its purported fragility. What would be interesting to know is the proportion of final cost that the pentaprism contributes to the K-3iii, and how much of that cost component is writing off the development of the manufacturing processes, or the cost of rejects. If those are significant, then we can probably guess why other makers didn’t bother with developing their own, given that, at the time, their sales were doing well enough with existing components and the existing cost structures.

Bear in mind that the price of the K-3iii is considerably higher than that of its predecessors, and that may well arise from component cost increases, rather than smaller anticipated sales. While a major price rise will undoubtedly put off some buyers, at least initially, I would be surprised if Ricoh planned for greatly reduced sales of the K-3iii, compared with its predecessors, especially as the price settles to a point closer that of its direct competitors.

thibs · 05-07-2021, 10:16 AM

True though the performance increase was also way higher than previous transitions (K10 -> K20-> K7->K5->K3)

reh321 · 05-07-2021, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

Judging from the references to the difficulty of making the prism from the glass, we can probably assume that making the glass block in the first place was also difficult, due to its purported fragility. What would be interesting to know is the proportion of final cost that the pentaprism contributes to the K-3iii, and how much of that cost component is writing off the development of the manufacturing processes, or the cost of rejects. If those are significant, then we can probably guess why other makers didn’t bother with developing their own, given that, at the time, their sales were doing well enough with existing components and the existing cost structures.

I am guessing that it is a fairly large portion of the cost {probably about half} - and will continue to be {I'm guessing they will find themselves continuing to reject some} - which is why I expect the K-70 followup to include the new processor {probably needed for 4K} and the new focusing sensor, but to continue to use the old prism.

thibs · 05-07-2021, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by reh321

I am guessing that it is a fairly large portion of the cost {probably about half} - and will continue to be {I'm guessing they will find themselves continuing to reject some} - which is why I expect the K-70 followup to include the new processor {probably needed for 4K} and the new focusing sensor, but to continue to use the old prism.

Half I dunno, but new prism is K70 successor is a no-go indeed.

mtkeller · 05-07-2021, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by reh321

I am guessing that it is a fairly large portion of the cost {probably about half} - and will continue to be {I'm guessing they will find themselves continuing to reject some} - which is why I expect the K-70 followup to include the new processor {probably needed for 4K} and the new focusing sensor, but to continue to use the old prism.

When was the last time (if ever) that the K-n0 series had the same AF module as the flagship APS-C camera? There's no way that the K-70 Mark II has SAFOX 13. The K-70 has SAFOX X, which came from the K-5 series. SAFOX 11 existed before the K-70 came along, but it didn't get it. the K-70 Mark II will probably get an AF update, but I would be very skeptical that it would get a 300,000 pixel AF/AE sensor and 101 AF points. Maybe an 80K-ish pixel AF/AE sensor like the K-1 has and more than 11 AF points, but it's not going to have SAFOX 13.

reh321 · 05-07-2021, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by mtkeller

When was the last time (if ever) that the K-n0 series had the same AF module as the flagship APS-C camera? There's no way that the K-70 Mark II has SAFOX 13. The K-70 has SAFOX X, which came from the K-5 series. SAFOX 11 existed before the K-70 came along, but it didn't get it. the K-70 Mark II will probably get an AF update, but I would be very skeptical that it would get a 300,000 pixel AF/AE sensor and 101 AF points. Maybe an 80K-ish pixel AF/AE sensor like the K-1 has and more than 11 AF points, but it's not going to have SAFOX 13.

Pentax's stated intention - first stated after the K-70 came out - is to become a "premium" brand.
We cannot assume anything about the 'K-90' - neither about the price nor about focusing - from the past.

added: The KP already had an 86K pixel AF/AE sensor - there is no reason not to expect the n0 family to go beyond that.

Smolk · 05-08-2021, 03:52 AM

On the other hand, they had to invest in a new factory set-up for the new pentaprism in Japan due to the pandemic. Might as well use it intensively now to spread the costs.

reh321 · 05-08-2021, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by Smolk

On the other hand, they had to invest in a new factory set-up for the new pentaprism in Japan due to the pandemic. Might as well use it intensively now to spread the costs.

We have no information about how hard that line is working, nor how hard Pentax would like to work it.
We have earlier expressed the belief that this prism needs a physically strong structure to support it, and it may be a major part of the unanticipated {by us} price increase.
In general, this would probably no be a good candidate for inclusion in a lower-tier camera.

Not a Number · 05-08-2021, 09:25 AM

Not only were there R&D costs but most likely the glass is more expensive that the normal glass used in the prism. Even though the lenses in my eyeglasses are plastic the higher index lenses (thinner lens) are two or more times more expensive then the next lower index material. Part of this is that the lenses need a higher level precision in the grinding and polishing.

Smolk · 05-09-2021, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by reh321

We have no information about how hard that line is working, nor how hard Pentax would like to work it.
We have earlier expressed the belief that this prism needs a physically strong structure to support it, and it may be a major part of the unanticipated {by us} price increase.
In general, this would probably no be a good candidate for inclusion in a lower-tier camera.

We have no information indeed, and it may well be relatively small, but as we have no info...
But I agree that it wouldn't exactly be lower-tier. I just wonder how much profit lower-tier still makes. On the other hand, it's covering corners in the market.

**RobA_Oz** · 05-09-2021, 02:33 PM

The only thing we know about the current camera market is that it’s a lot smaller than it was five years ago. The changes within the market segments are only known in detail to the research groups who talk to the manufacturers – not a lot of it seems to be available to the general public. I suspect that the definitions of “entry level” and “lower-tier” have changed significantly, recently.

What that means for the technology deployed across the segments is anybody’s guess.

Smolk · 05-09-2021, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

The only thing we know about the current camera market is that it’s a lot smaller than it was five years ago. The changes within the market segments are only known in detail to the research groups who talk to the manufacturers – not a lot of it seems to be available to the general public. I suspect that the definitions of “entry level” and “lower-tier” have changed significantly, recently.

What that means for the technology deployed across the segments is anybody’s guess.

True enough. I do believe that Pentax is right to focus on the higher tiers, premium-quality market segment in a shrinking market. Whether it will pay off, we cannot yet say.
On the basis of these forums it seems the new camera is selling really well, but that may well be because we're interested in it - it may be a distortion. I don't really think it is but it remains a possibility.

taktoon · 05-11-2021, 04:44 AM

In my opinion K-3 III needs new fast high quality lenses. 16-50/2.8 PLM and 50-135 with modern AF motor is a must have for this system. Going up market is the proper way. I hope we will see quite soon (in one year) FF body with new viewfinder and other features from K-3 III.

MMVIII · 05-11-2021, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by taktoon

In my opinion K-3 III needs new fast high quality lenses. 16-50/2.8 PLM and 50-135 with modern AF motor is a must have for this system. Going up market is the proper way. I hope we will see quite soon (in one year) FF body with new viewfinder and other features from K-3 III.

Spot on! These two fast standard zooms are essential for APS-C now. All others zooms can be shared with FF, here a dedicated fast Telezoom might be interesting.

reh321 · 05-11-2021, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by MMVIII

Spot on! These two fast standard zooms are essential for APS-C now. All others zooms can be shared with FF, here a dedicated fast Telezoom might be interesting.

I don't see an urgent need for a 50mm+ "APS-C" lens; the DA 55-300mm6 PLM does a great job.

added: besides this thread is supposed to be about the prism.

05-07-2021, 01:13 PM	#66
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,183	Originally posted by mtkeller When was the last time (if ever) that the K-n0 series had the same AF module as the flagship APS-C camera? There's no way that the K-70 Mark II has SAFOX 13. The K-70 has SAFOX X, which came from the K-5 series. SAFOX 11 existed before the K-70 came along, but it didn't get it. the K-70 Mark II will probably get an AF update, but I would be very skeptical that it would get a 300,000 pixel AF/AE sensor and 101 AF points. Maybe an 80K-ish pixel AF/AE sensor like the K-1 has and more than 11 AF points, but it's not going to have SAFOX 13. Pentax's stated intention - first stated after the K-70 came out - is to become a "premium" brand. We cannot assume anything about the 'K-90' - neither about the price nor about focusing - from the past. added: The KP already had an 86K pixel AF/AE sensor - there is no reason not to expect the n0 family to go beyond that. Last edited by reh321; 05-07-2021 at 01:57 PM.

05-11-2021, 06:33 AM	#75
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,183	Originally posted by MMVIII Spot on! These two fast standard zooms are essential for APS-C now. All others zooms can be shared with FF, here a dedicated fast Telezoom might be interesting. I don't see an urgent need for a 50mm+ "APS-C" lens; the DA 55-300mm6 PLM does a great job. added: besides this thread is supposed to be about the prism. Last edited by reh321; 05-11-2021 at 06:52 AM.

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05-06-2021, 03:07 PM	#61
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,200	Judging from the references to the difficulty of making the prism from the glass, we can probably assume that making the glass block in the first place was also difficult, due to its purported fragility. What would be interesting to know is the proportion of final cost that the pentaprism contributes to the K-3iii, and how much of that cost component is writing off the development of the manufacturing processes, or the cost of rejects. If those are significant, then we can probably guess why other makers didn’t bother with developing their own, given that, at the time, their sales were doing well enough with existing components and the existing cost structures. Bear in mind that the price of the K-3iii is considerably higher than that of its predecessors, and that may well arise from component cost increases, rather than smaller anticipated sales. While a major price rise will undoubtedly put off some buyers, at least initially, I would be surprised if Ricoh planned for greatly reduced sales of the K-3iii, compared with its predecessors, especially as the price settles to a point closer that of its direct competitors.

05-07-2021, 10:16 AM	#62
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	True though the performance increase was also way higher than previous transitions (K10 -> K20-> K7->K5->K3)

05-07-2021, 11:09 AM	#63
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,183	Originally posted by RobA_Oz Judging from the references to the difficulty of making the prism from the glass, we can probably assume that making the glass block in the first place was also difficult, due to its purported fragility. What would be interesting to know is the proportion of final cost that the pentaprism contributes to the K-3iii, and how much of that cost component is writing off the development of the manufacturing processes, or the cost of rejects. If those are significant, then we can probably guess why other makers didn’t bother with developing their own, given that, at the time, their sales were doing well enough with existing components and the existing cost structures. I am guessing that it is a fairly large portion of the cost {probably about half} - and will continue to be {I'm guessing they will find themselves continuing to reject some} - which is why I expect the K-70 followup to include the new processor {probably needed for 4K} and the new focusing sensor, but to continue to use the old prism.

05-07-2021, 11:45 AM	#64
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by reh321 I am guessing that it is a fairly large portion of the cost {probably about half} - and will continue to be {I'm guessing they will find themselves continuing to reject some} - which is why I expect the K-70 followup to include the new processor {probably needed for 4K} and the new focusing sensor, but to continue to use the old prism. Half I dunno, but new prism is K70 successor is a no-go indeed.

05-07-2021, 12:01 PM	#65
mtkeller Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Sioux City, IA Photos: Gallery Posts: 938	Originally posted by reh321 I am guessing that it is a fairly large portion of the cost {probably about half} - and will continue to be {I'm guessing they will find themselves continuing to reject some} - which is why I expect the K-70 followup to include the new processor {probably needed for 4K} and the new focusing sensor, but to continue to use the old prism. When was the last time (if ever) that the K-n0 series had the same AF module as the flagship APS-C camera? There's no way that the K-70 Mark II has SAFOX 13. The K-70 has SAFOX X, which came from the K-5 series. SAFOX 11 existed before the K-70 came along, but it didn't get it. the K-70 Mark II will probably get an AF update, but I would be very skeptical that it would get a 300,000 pixel AF/AE sensor and 101 AF points. Maybe an 80K-ish pixel AF/AE sensor like the K-1 has and more than 11 AF points, but it's not going to have SAFOX 13.

05-08-2021, 03:52 AM	#67
Smolk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Eerbeek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,857	On the other hand, they had to invest in a new factory set-up for the new pentaprism in Japan due to the pandemic. Might as well use it intensively now to spread the costs.

05-08-2021, 07:30 AM	#68
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,183	Originally posted by Smolk On the other hand, they had to invest in a new factory set-up for the new pentaprism in Japan due to the pandemic. Might as well use it intensively now to spread the costs. We have no information about how hard that line is working, nor how hard Pentax would like to work it. We have earlier expressed the belief that this prism needs a physically strong structure to support it, and it may be a major part of the unanticipated {by us} price increase. In general, this would probably no be a good candidate for inclusion in a lower-tier camera.

05-08-2021, 09:25 AM	#69
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	Not only were there R&D costs but most likely the glass is more expensive that the normal glass used in the prism. Even though the lenses in my eyeglasses are plastic the higher index lenses (thinner lens) are two or more times more expensive then the next lower index material. Part of this is that the lenses need a higher level precision in the grinding and polishing.

05-09-2021, 01:07 AM	#70
Smolk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Eerbeek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,857	Originally posted by reh321 We have no information about how hard that line is working, nor how hard Pentax would like to work it. We have earlier expressed the belief that this prism needs a physically strong structure to support it, and it may be a major part of the unanticipated {by us} price increase. In general, this would probably no be a good candidate for inclusion in a lower-tier camera. We have no information indeed, and it may well be relatively small, but as we have no info... But I agree that it wouldn't exactly be lower-tier. I just wonder how much profit lower-tier still makes. On the other hand, it's covering corners in the market.

05-09-2021, 02:33 PM	#71
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,200	The only thing we know about the current camera market is that it’s a lot smaller than it was five years ago. The changes within the market segments are only known in detail to the research groups who talk to the manufacturers – not a lot of it seems to be available to the general public. I suspect that the definitions of “entry level” and “lower-tier” have changed significantly, recently. What that means for the technology deployed across the segments is anybody’s guess.

05-09-2021, 10:14 PM	#72
Smolk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Eerbeek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,857	Originally posted by RobA_Oz The only thing we know about the current camera market is that it’s a lot smaller than it was five years ago. The changes within the market segments are only known in detail to the research groups who talk to the manufacturers – not a lot of it seems to be available to the general public. I suspect that the definitions of “entry level” and “lower-tier” have changed significantly, recently. What that means for the technology deployed across the segments is anybody’s guess. True enough. I do believe that Pentax is right to focus on the higher tiers, premium-quality market segment in a shrinking market. Whether it will pay off, we cannot yet say. On the basis of these forums it seems the new camera is selling really well, but that may well be because we're interested in it - it may be a distortion. I don't really think it is but it remains a possibility.

05-11-2021, 04:44 AM	#73
taktoon Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 605	In my opinion K-3 III needs new fast high quality lenses. 16-50/2.8 PLM and 50-135 with modern AF motor is a must have for this system. Going up market is the proper way. I hope we will see quite soon (in one year) FF body with new viewfinder and other features from K-3 III.

05-11-2021, 05:01 AM	#74
MMVIII Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: EU Posts: 1,121	Originally posted by taktoon In my opinion K-3 III needs new fast high quality lenses. 16-50/2.8 PLM and 50-135 with modern AF motor is a must have for this system. Going up market is the proper way. I hope we will see quite soon (in one year) FF body with new viewfinder and other features from K-3 III. Spot on! These two fast standard zooms are essential for APS-C now. All others zooms can be shared with FF, here a dedicated fast Telezoom might be interesting.