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06-12-2021, 03:45 PM - 1 Like   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kobayashi.K Quote
1. In some places the menus are using the INFO button to advance into the structure instead of OK or the > button. It is a lazy hack, because the INFO button is supposed to give information.
2. The menu structure for setting the smart functions is a mess, and it looks implemented in great haste.
3. The DCU software is baked into the camera to replace the CD, but it cannot be updated, while software is supposed to be upgradeable during its lifetime. So after one upgrade (which already happened) the DCU is sitting in the camera for nothing.
4. The functionality for using M- and K-series lenses in automatic modes uses exposure measurement at full press of the shutter with all sorts of ugly consequences. Exposure measurement should always be done at half-press. They have done that to prevent users complaining about the sound of the aperture closing with the green button functionality every time you touch the shutter button with a half-press.
  1. Meh. It’s not like you’re hunting around on a 52” screen looking for how to do something. Once you realize that the bottom of the screen will indicate the role of the info button when it can do extra things, this is a non-issue.
  2. This is really the same complaint you’ve made as #1.
  3. What would the point be of upgrading the copy that’s in the camera? It’s just a stand-in for shipping a CD or DVD that most of us couldn’t read. This has the advantage that if you sell the camera, the person gets a copy of DCU that they can install from the camera and then they can download the latest version from the web. Who on earth would actually update the version of DCU stored inside the camera? If you’re downloading something to update DCU, just update it on the computer. Why put it into the camera?
  4. You’ll have to elaborate on what these “ugly consequences” are in your mind. I find that the implementation works well. The shutter button is too light of a touch to have the camera stopping down to meter on a half press.


06-12-2021, 06:26 PM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kobayashi.K Quote
An interesting aspect in the Wikipedia article, at the bottom is:

"Feature creep combined with short deadlines will often lead to a "hacky solution". The desired change may be large enough to warrant a redesign of the existing project foundation, but deadline pressure instead requires developers to just "make it work" with a less elegant approach."

The K3-III is actually plagued with hacks. Without expanding on that too much I'll mention four of them:

1. In some places the menus are using the INFO button to advance into the structure instead of OK or the > button. It is a lazy hack, because the INFO button is supposed to give information.
This description didn't sound right to me, but I understood only after I had explored the controls of my K-30.
The designers could have had a button for every function, but instead they used a well-understood practice known as "over-loading" - one button serves several purposes depending on the context.
For example, the four-button controller does have suggestive pictures/letters on it, but often the pictures/letters mean nothing - the positions of the buttons control movement.
So, for example, the top button of the four-button controller has the letters "ISO", but in many cases it is simply understood to mean 'move up'.


When I enter the menu system, the first item is "Custom Image".
When I highlight it, by pressing the "down" button {the one labeled "WB"}, I see


The rightmost button of the four-button controller may have a picture which could be interpreted as a clock face, but most of us understand that the screen tells us to press it to enter the highlighted command.
If you press it, you see the following



At the bottom, they explain how to use buttons to control this screen.
The button labeled "Info" means to go on to the next submenu to adjust parameters {that submenu has no "info" description, but pressing it does take us back to this submenu}.
The button labeled "Menu" means to end this item without changing anything
The button labeled "OK" means to accept the values currently selected

added: These are not "hacks" - they are a carefully thought-out design used by almost every recent Pentax camera.

Last edited by reh321; 06-12-2021 at 07:13 PM. Reason: 'For example"
06-12-2021, 07:26 PM - 1 Like   #153
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Didn’t see this one asked, not sure if it is too late...

With several third party lens manufacturers announcing they will no longer support K mount, will Pentax pursue any new partnerships with lens producers to fill gaps in the roadmap or elsewhere with additional “rebadged” offerings? Or does Pentax intend to produce all new lenses itself?
06-13-2021, 04:20 AM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The designers could have had a button for every function, but instead they used a well-understood practice known as "over-loading" - one button serves several purposes depending on the context.
For example, the four-button controller does have suggestive pictures/letters on it, but often the pictures/letters mean nothing - the positions of the buttons control movement.
So, for example, the top button of the four-button controller has the letters "ISO", but in many cases it is simply understood to mean 'move up'.
.....
The rightmost button of the four-button controller may have a picture which could be interpreted as a clock face, but most of us understand that the screen tells us to press it to enter the highlighted command.
If you press it, you see the following
.....
At the bottom, they explain how to use buttons to control this screen.
The button labeled "Info" means to go on to the next submenu to adjust parameters {that submenu has no "info" description, but pressing it does take us back to this submenu}.
The button labeled "Menu" means to end this item without changing anything
The button labeled "OK" means to accept the values currently selected
....
added: These are not "hacks" - they are a carefully thought-out design used by almost every recent Pentax camera.
That is plain stupid, and they already doing this for years. My Olympus EM1X has a massive menu structure and *all* navigating is simply done with the Up, Down, Left, Right, and OK buttons on the 4-way controller, nothing else. The 4-way controller hasn't even a print on it because everybody expects it is for navigating. And when you need info for a selected menu item you press the INFO button and a tooltip is shown with an explanation what the item is doing (amazing, the logic). That's all. How much brains do you need to design such an obvious interface.

06-13-2021, 05:06 AM - 2 Likes   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kobayashi.K Quote
That is plain stupid, and they already doing this for years. My Olympus EM1X has a massive menu structure and *all* navigating is simply done with the Up, Down, Left, Right, and OK buttons on the 4-way controller, nothing else. The 4-way controller hasn't even a print on it because everybody expects it is for navigating. And when you need info for a selected menu item you press the INFO button and a tooltip is shown with an explanation what the item is doing (amazing, the logic). That's all. How much brains do you need to design such an obvious interface.
With all due respect, who the heck cares what your your fabulous Olympus EM1X has as a menu structure and how it is accessed. Do you own a K-3 Mk III? If you do I suggest you learn to use the well designed menu structure and stop belly aching about it.
06-13-2021, 05:43 AM - 1 Like   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kobayashi.K Quote
That is plain stupid, and they already doing this for years. My Olympus EM1X has a massive menu structure and *all* navigating is simply done with the Up, Down, Left, Right, and OK buttons on the 4-way controller, nothing else. The 4-way controller hasn't even a print on it because everybody expects it is for navigating. And when you need info for a selected menu item you press the INFO button and a tooltip is shown with an explanation what the item is doing (amazing, the logic). That's all. How much brains do you need to design such an obvious interface.
I don't think the Olympus menu should be held as a shining example of how to do things..

Pretty sure they use the info button 'wrongly' as well!!
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06-13-2021, 05:46 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kobayashi.K Quote
That is plain stupid, and they already doing this for years. My Olympus EM1X has a massive menu structure and *all* navigating is simply done with the Up, Down, Left, Right, and OK buttons on the 4-way controller, nothing else. The 4-way controller hasn't even a print on it because everybody expects it is for navigating. And when you need info for a selected menu item you press the INFO button and a tooltip is shown with an explanation what the item is doing (amazing, the logic).
INFO, by itself, gives you access to the information about the colour preset's parameters [shocking, I know]. I don't need a tooltip for every little thing anyway, and I'd much rather the designers give me a good button layout that has the right number of buttons in the right position than have an entire keyboard's worth of single-use buttons that exist only to be mis-pressed at the wrong time .

QuoteOriginally posted by Kobayashi.K Quote
How much brains do you need to design such an obvious interface.
There's a thing known as "context-dependent controls", which is a fantastic way of giving your muscle memory an easier time.

06-13-2021, 05:50 AM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
With all due respect, who the heck cares what your your fabulous Olympus EM1X has as a menu structure and how it is accessed. Do you own a K-3 Mk III? If you do I suggest you learn to use the well designed menu structure and stop belly aching about it.
Thank you for your encouraging comment. My example is showing the contrast between two design teams, and one of them looks very amateuristic at times. And yes, I have a K3-III. Very nice camera for the task I had in mind, that is JPEG monochrome with Custom Image. There are not many cameras that can be set up so easy for an optimum histogram, including the Leica Monochrom and Q2 Monochrom and to keep it stable in various lighting conditions.
BTW I know how to use the menus on a Pentax since I have the K5-II, K-50 and K-70 despite they are a hack, but one can become accustomed to it quite easy.
06-13-2021, 07:39 AM - 2 Likes   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kobayashi.K Quote
Thank you for your encouraging comment. My example is showing the contrast between two design teams, and one of them looks very amateuristic at times.
Don't be so harsh on Olympus, they did their best!
06-13-2021, 07:43 AM - 1 Like   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kobayashi.K Quote
I know how to use the menus on a Pentax since I have the K5-II, K-50 and K-70 despite they are a hack, but one can become accustomed to it quite easy.
You may understand how to use them, but you certainly do not understand the concept of “over-loading” as it allows them to make optimal use of buttons ….. but that is not unusual. Several of the main software developers at my last job privately admitted to me that they had trouble with the programming language Java, because they didn’t understand it’s implementation of “over-loading”. They could use
n + m where n, m are integers
a + b where a, b are ‘floating point’ fractions
s + t where s, t are character strings
because the rules are carefully spelled out in the manual,
but they were confused by having the developer define a new type “complex”, and then defining
c + d where c, d are of that new type.

Likewise, you may leave people laughing by your insistence of using the word “hack”,
but the use of buttons really is a carefully thought-out design, as I have already shown.

Last edited by reh321; 06-13-2021 at 07:48 AM.
06-13-2021, 09:18 AM - 3 Likes   #161
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This is no longer about interview questions, me thinks...
06-13-2021, 10:29 AM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kobayashi.K Quote
Thank you for your encouraging comment. My example is showing the contrast between two design teams, and one of them looks very amateuristic at times. And yes, I have a K3-III. Very nice camera for the task I had in mind, that is JPEG monochrome with Custom Image. There are not many cameras that can be set up so easy for an optimum histogram, including the Leica Monochrom and Q2 Monochrom and to keep it stable in various lighting conditions.
BTW I know how to use the menus on a Pentax since I have the K5-II, K-50 and K-70 despite they are a hack, but one can become accustomed to it quite easy.
I'm relieved that you actually found how to access the custom menu selections since its such a "stupid" system! Your use of the word "hack" is completely out of context regarding the Mk III menu system, hack is used to denote a way to make something accessible or easy easy to operate. You seem to imply that the menu system of the Mk III is not easy to access or laid out logically, I think many will not agree with you, but to each his own. If "hack" is used properly then the Mk III menu system is definitely a hack because its very accessible and easy to operate.

Last edited by Larrymc; 06-13-2021 at 10:38 AM.
06-13-2021, 10:38 AM - 2 Likes   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
This is no longer about interview questions, me thinks...
Hopefully Adam will ignore these comments, since the Pentax user interface really is OK;
calling them a “hack” really does come from ignorance.
06-13-2021, 11:09 AM   #164
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So, to honour the advise from Kunzite, my question to Pentax is: is the menu structure as we see it now the final version or can we expect any updates in firmware in the near future, with perhaps also a Help function in the form of tooltips on the items with the INFO button.

I now quit this thread, thank you all for the constructive discussion.
06-14-2021, 01:13 AM - 1 Like   #165
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What the operation logic of K3III wants to say is: I think the main disadvantage is that the particle size of FX function is still not enough, and I hope to add high frequency operations like green button to FX function.
At present, the FX function of K3III has a high degree of freedom and availability. In fact, I seldom operate S.Fn. Although I have carefully adjusted the S.Fn function and set the most frequently used and very important function, the efficiency of pressing the FX button directly is obviously higher.

What I want to say about the product line is: I personally think Pentax should now focus on two full frame camera product lines and one APSC product line. K3III as a new generation of flagship camera, light metre sensor, auto focus sensor, new system and operation logic are satisfactory. But it doesn't work for a large number of users who have switched to the full frame product line - a new generation of full frame cameras is still far away.
If Pentax has two full frame camera product lines, the impact of Sony's FF sensor update speed will be reduced. The cross update of the two product lines can also enable full frame users to use the latest technology as soon as possible.

As for the suggestion, I think it's only to update the battery and release more information about the release lens roadmap. I don't want to talk too much about other aspects.
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