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09-18-2021, 08:26 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
It also isn't a given that in lens stabilization is beneficial for long telephoto lenses; the skill necessary to get optimum image captures at greater than 300mm has more to do with the photographer being able to anticipate what will be in the frame when the shutter opens than what is visible in the viewfinder. Depending on how the photographer has honed her skills through purposeful practice and painful experience, the degree of image stabilization is largely irrelevant.
I'm not sure what you mean by that first sentence, although the following ones indicate you're talking about moving subjects.

For static subjects, until I bought a Sigma 150-500 with in-lens stabilisation, I didn't realise the benefit for composition through the optical viewfinder, with a long FL lens – the benefit for a lens of FL 300mm or less is not so marked, of course. Of course, if you're using LiveView or an EVF then it's pretty much irrelevant.

09-18-2021, 08:35 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
For static subjects, until I bought a Sigma 150-500 with in-lens stabilisation, I didn't realise the benefit for composition through the optical viewfinder, with a long FL lens – the benefit for a lens of FL 300mm or less is not so marked, of course. Of course, if you're using LiveView or an EVF then it's pretty much irrelevant.
Any image stabilization system is irrelevant if you are using a tripod. No argument from me that handheld photography at 300mm plus is difficult, even at low resolution. I'll blame the wine for my anonymous flippancy, but I do think we tend to overcompensate for technical variances that are orthogonal to how we ought to take photos. YMMV
09-18-2021, 09:42 PM - 1 Like   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
I based my comment on the fact that the only modern SR lens designed by Pentax is the D FA 645 90mm. A "near-normal" focal length for 645 format. The mass of a 44mm x 33mm sensor compared to even a 35mm x 24mm sensor makes IBIS very expensive in terms of power consumption and the space required to allow the necessary movement of the sensor. Another reason why m43 format can offer higher levels of image stabilization than even APS-C.


Which is not say that Ricoh didn't register this patent to protect its upcoming 70-300 consumer zoom strictly for 35mm equivalent cameras, but a patent is a poor guide to real life product releases. It also isn't a given that in lens stabilization is beneficial for long telephoto lenses; the skill necessary to get optimum image captures at greater than 300mm has more to do with the photographer being able to anticipate what will be in the frame when the shutter opens than what is visible in the viewfinder. Depending on how the photographer has honed her skills through purposeful practice and painful experience, the degree of image stabilization is largely irrelevant.
Presuming a perfectly composed blur is what is desired, I agree with you completely.
Otherwise, having a steady image is pretty necessary.
09-18-2021, 10:50 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Otherwise, having a steady image is pretty necessary.
Even more true if what you are trying to focus on the eye of your subject with a 600mm lens

---------- Post added 09-18-2021 at 10:54 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
Any image stabilization system is irrelevant if you are using a tripod.
Above 300mm it is nice to have IS with a tripod

09-19-2021, 01:29 PM - 2 Likes   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ian Stuart Forsyth Quote
Even more true if what you are trying to focus on the eye of your subject with a 600mm lens

---------- Post added 09-18-2021 at 10:54 PM ----------



Above 300mm it is nice to have IS with a tripod
I get far more long lens failures from camera movement than I do from pointing the thing in the wrong direction.
They say shake reduction isn't supposed to work with tripods, but sometimes they have been known to be wrong. I've never found it hurts, and I often forget to turn it off when I use a tripod.
09-19-2021, 01:38 PM - 1 Like   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I get far more long lens failures from camera movement than I do from pointing the thing in the wrong direction.
They say shake reduction isn't supposed to work with tripods, but sometimes they have been known to be wrong. I've never found it hurts, and I often forget to turn it off when I use a tripod.
Appropriate shutter speed can ‘stop’ both camera and subject motion.
09-19-2021, 01:47 PM - 2 Likes   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
Any image stabilization system is irrelevant if you are using a tripod. No argument from me that handheld photography at 300mm plus is difficult, even at low resolution. I'll blame the wine for my anonymous flippancy, but I do think we tend to overcompensate for technical variances that are orthogonal to how we ought to take photos. YMMV
Depends on the length of the lens and the stoutness of the tripod. I have had plenty of tripod situations where having shake reduction enabled was helpful.

09-19-2021, 02:54 PM - 2 Likes   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Appropriate shutter speed can ‘stop’ both camera and subject motion.
That comment is truly only relevant to manual focus with a film camera (or equivalent resolution).

On a 36MP FF camera, each pixel is about 0.0005 deg on a 600mm lens. To put things in perspective, the Earth rotates that much every 1/10 sec. What appropriate shutter speed would you claim could 'freeze' - at a pixel level - a handheld shot with KP and DA 560mm

High shutter speed also doesn't help the focussing system have a steady image to process (PDAF with in lens SR or CDAF with IBIS and/or in-lens SR).

I like the Pentax IBIS, but would also appreciate in-lens SR on any new long telephoto they make.
09-19-2021, 03:56 PM - 1 Like   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by phoebus Quote
On a 36MP FF camera, each pixel is about 0.0005 deg on a 600mm lens. To put things in perspective, the Earth rotates that much every 1/10 sec. What appropriate shutter speed would you claim could 'freeze' - at a pixel level - a handheld shot with KP and DA 560mm
I think not worrying about pixel precision when doing handheld work will reduce anxiety because literally no one but the shooter cares.
09-19-2021, 04:11 PM - 2 Likes   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Appropriate shutter speed can ‘stop’ both camera and subject motion.
Yes and no. Your maximum real shutter speed is your flash sync speed.
Any camera or subject movement that happens within your sync speed will be recorded, no matter what the shutter speed is set to.

---------- Post added Sep 19th, 2021 at 05:13 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ZombieArmy Quote
I think not worrying about pixel precision when doing handheld work will reduce anxiety because literally no one but the shooter cares.
It depends on the level of imprecision combined with the final output size.
09-19-2021, 05:13 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Yes and no. Your maximum real shutter speed is your flash sync speed.
Any camera or subject movement that happens within your sync speed will be recorded, no matter what the shutter speed is set to.
Sometimes I forget how this is the case, because things like old-school rolling shutter don't happen all that often with mechanical shutters on modern "miniature" cameras...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-19...%2C_Berlin.jpg

Though I guess there are some exceptions to that when you start talking about electronic shutters, grabbing only part of the sensor's readout at a time, and stuff like that...
But I guess that's still basically the same point...

-Eric
09-19-2021, 07:42 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by phoebus Quote
That comment is truly only relevant to manual focus with a film camera (or equivalent resolution).

On a 36MP FF camera, each pixel is about 0.0005 deg on a 600mm lens. To put things in perspective, the Earth rotates that much every 1/10 sec. What appropriate shutter speed would you claim could 'freeze' - at a pixel level - a handheld shot with KP and DA 560mm

High shutter speed also doesn't help the focussing system have a steady image to process (PDAF with in lens SR or CDAF with IBIS and/or in-lens SR).
Anything - everything - I photograph is under the influence of the earth’s gravity - moves with the earth - and so the earth’s rotation is irrelevant …. is a strawman.


added: ‘SR’ involves movement of the camera only - not of the subject.
I photograph speeding trains - which move faster than I ever do;
I’m not sure if this is still true …. at one time I could hand-hold atv1/8th second with no noticeable “blur” {I make a practice of not pixel-peeking}.

Last edited by reh321; 09-19-2021 at 08:00 PM.
09-19-2021, 11:53 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by TwoUptons Quote
Sometimes I forget how this is the case, because things like old-school rolling shutter don't happen all that often with mechanical shutters on modern "miniature" cameras...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-19...%2C_Berlin.jpg

Though I guess there are some exceptions to that when you start talking about electronic shutters, grabbing only part of the sensor's readout at a time, and stuff like that...
But I guess that's still basically the same point...

-Eric
Yeah, a good thing that most shutters have been vertically implemented for decades since that era.

Still fun to see although rolling shutter from current phones are way funnier IMO.
09-20-2021, 04:44 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by TwoUptons Quote
Sometimes I forget how this is the case, because things like old-school rolling shutter don't happen all that often with mechanical shutters on modern "miniature" cameras...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-19...%2C_Berlin.jpg

Though I guess there are some exceptions to that when you start talking about electronic shutters, grabbing only part of the sensor's readout at a time, and stuff like that...
But I guess that's still basically the same point...

-Eric
A focal plane shutter is, in essence, a rolling shutter when it gets above the sync speed.
09-20-2021, 06:02 AM - 1 Like   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
A focal plane shutter is, in essence, a rolling shutter when it gets above the sync speed.
This seems like a discussion of "distinction without a difference".

At one time I photographed a fan to demonstrate "rolling shutter" on a 'Q'. The first photo shows use of the Electronic Shutter on my Q-7.



Then I photographed the same fan with my K-30.



The shutter speed I chose did not quite 'stop' the blades. but that is not the point. The K-30 photo shows a clearly recognizable fan, and there is no noticeable blurring resulting from my own movement.


Likewise, my photograph {with a long lens } of a bird was clearly recognizable as a "Baltimore Oriole", with no noticeable 'loss' because I hand-held the camera instead of running inside to grab a tripod {while the bird flew away}.

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