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10-03-2021, 10:22 AM   #121
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Very reasonnably stated, norm

10-03-2021, 10:39 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Very reasonnably stated, norm
Thanks
10-03-2021, 04:05 PM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I agree with that. And you really think the price of Canon products don't fall over time? I'm glad I didn't buy a Canon EOS R in 2016, because after the release of the R5 and R6, the value of the R is pretty much zero (super hard to sell, IMO), since the first FF MILC attempt of Canon were pretty much inferior version of their previous 5D and 6D DSLR models. Same for Sony and Nikon cameras, they are rapidly replaced and staying "up-to-date" can turn out to be really expensive.
Camera bodies drop in price constantly, they never hold value like a good lens does, with any brand, well maybe except Leica. The R wasn't a very good camera that's why it wasn't a big seller like the R5, most Canon shooters were waiting for the R5 and 6. I took a big loss when I sold my 5 DSR because Canon had just put a huge rebate on them and they were selling for around $1500 new because they were discontinued. Even my 1DX2's value dropped after the R5 and 6 came out because so many people were selling and trading in their 1DX2's to move into the mirrorless system, the market was flooded with used gear that drove prices down. I was looking the other night at KEH and the prices of 1DX2 is around $2500, that's a great price for that camera. I think they even had a 1DX3 for $4500.

If you look at Canons EF 600 F4 IS II prices new after the version III came out they stayed exactly the same. They never had huge discounts on them, the same with the 400 2.8. The price of the newer lenses were increased and the older models still sold at their original retail price until dealers were out of stock.

With the DA560 they cut the retail price in half since launch to move the remaining stock and try a get something for the lenses, they just don't have the customers for high priced lenses.
10-03-2021, 11:16 PM   #124
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This is regrettably true, hence the only realistic hope would be for a rebadged 150-600 from Tamron plant....

10-03-2021, 11:54 PM   #125
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If they can't afford any Big Tele R&D themselves then they'll have to do so but they might want to hurry up, there isn't a lot of guys doing modern R&D for SLR lenses anymore.

Or they might license Nikon/Canon designs but somehow I'd be 'a little bit' surprised
10-04-2021, 12:09 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by KiloHotelphoto Quote
Camera bodies drop in price constantly, they never hold value like a good lens does, with any brand, well maybe except Leica.
Camera and lens money is the same, it's money. So maybe canon lens values drop more slowly than the Pentax 560, but if used canon camera prices drop faster / obsolete faster, then the money saved on the lenses is lost on the camera bodies. It's like some brands like Sony price cameras aggressively, but recover that money by charging more on lenses. I once lined-up in excel camera system costs per brand, and no matter how I turned it, all in all, there was no significant saving going with one brand or another. Ah yes, there was some saving if all lenses were from Sigma or Tamron, minus OEM quality and resale prices (usually used Tamron/Sigma glass sells rather low).
10-04-2021, 02:59 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
If they can't afford any Big Tele R&D themselves then they'll have to do so but they might want to hurry up, there isn't a lot of guys doing modern R&D for SLR lenses anymore.

Or they might license Nikon/Canon designs but somehow I'd be 'a little bit' surprised
Though for the super teles I have to think there’s little difference between a SLR lens and a mirrorless one.

Having lens elements right up against the body isn’t usually a problem…

-Eric

10-04-2021, 03:22 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by TwoUptons Quote
Though for the super teles I have to think there’s little difference between a SLR lens and a mirrorless one.

Having lens elements right up against the body isn’t usually a problem…

-Eric
True but if the designed is made with a MILC register distance in mind from the start...
The opposite isn't a problem, indeed.
10-04-2021, 05:08 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
True but if the designed is made with a MILC register distance in mind from the start...
The opposite isn't a problem, indeed.
A MILC registration distance should be just as easy to put an adapter on as a DSLR distance. Possibly easier.
10-04-2021, 07:21 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
If they can't afford any Big Tele R&D themselves then they'll have to do so but they might want to hurry up, there isn't a lot of guys doing modern R&D for SLR lenses anymore.

Or they might license Nikon/Canon designs but somehow I'd be 'a little bit' surprised
More likely, they will just let anyone who wants a super telephoto choose either the 150-450 or another brand.
Pentax failed at being all things to all people. I think Ricoh is smart enough to not go down that path again.

---------- Post added Oct 4th, 2021 at 08:26 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Where can you find a 560/5.6 lens sold for $2500-3000? The Pentax 560/5.6 was competitively priced for what it is.
If it was a bad lens........
An excellent lens in that range is going to cost that kind of coin, and can be justified on quality. A less than good lens in that range cannot justify that kind of pricing, even with the low volume price adjustment that Pentax is forced to put on their gear.

A ~600/5.6 has to be excellent to justify an 8k price tag.
10-04-2021, 08:56 AM - 2 Likes   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
More likely, they will just let anyone who wants a super telephoto choose either the 150-450 or another brand.
Pentax failed at being all things to all people. I think Ricoh is smart enough to not go down that path again.
At this point, with... I dunno, decades, since the last fast super tele, IMO if the lack of a 600/4 or similar lens is what's causing an user to be dissatisfied with the brand, it's mostly self-inflicted dissatisfaction.

Personally I'd think that the most efficient way for Ricoh to go around this, if they were to try, would be a 300/2.8 and a good quality TC. More kinds of shooter might like such a lens as well, so it would be a less "nichest of the niche" lens than a very long tele.
10-04-2021, 09:05 AM - 1 Like   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
At this point, with... I dunno, decades, since the last fast super tele, IMO if the lack of a 600/4 or similar lens is what's causing an user to be dissatisfied with the brand, it's mostly self-inflicted dissatisfaction.

Personally I'd think that the most efficient way for Ricoh to go around this, if they were to try, would be a 300/2.8 and a good quality TC. More kinds of shooter might like such a lens as well, so it would be a less "nichest of the niche" lens than a very long tele.
And yet some of our best shooters are shooting with a 600 ƒ/4. If you want one, you can find one.

Personally I'd prefer a 420 ƒ4 to a 300 ƒ/2.8. I have the Tamron 300 2.8 and it almost always has the 1.4 or 1.7x on it. The DoF parameters in long lenses are such that ƒ4 is a workable wide aperture. I almost always use ƒ/5.6 in any case on APS-c and ƒ/8 on FF.

420 ƒ/4 would give me 700 6.3 with the 1.7. Not shabby at all.

Last edited by normhead; 10-04-2021 at 09:17 AM.
10-04-2021, 09:17 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
And yet some of our best shooters are shooting with a 600 ƒ/4. If you want one, you can find one.
Yeah, exactly. The old FA* lenses produce astonishing images. And if it's faster AF that is needed, the user has probably left the brand a good while ago - which is a reasonable thing to do.

---------- Post added 10-04-21 at 09:21 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Personally I'd prefer a 420 ƒ4 to a 300 ƒ/2.8. I have the Tamron 300 2.8 and it almost always has the 1.4 or 1.7x on it. The DoF parameters in long lenses are such that ƒ4 is a workable wide aperture. I almost always use ƒ/5.6 in any case on APS-c and ƒ/8 on FF.

420 ƒ/4 would give me 700 6.3 with the 1.7. Not shabby at all.
Yeah, it definitely wouldn't be the best option for many things - I just figured that 300mm is one of those "long but not overly-specific long" lenses that many people would like to have, and thus it wouldn't be totally financially irresponsible for Ricoh to develop one.


That said, I don't presume to know what would be good compromises, since I'm a total noob with teles... I wouldn't even want/need a 300/2.8 (it's just not the kind of photography I do). So I'm happy regardless of what Ricoh make in the range . For hiking I bring the PLM, or maybe the 400/5.6 if I know there are some far away vistas. If I ever needed a bigger lens, the 150-450 would have me completely covered, I think.

Last edited by Serkevan; 10-04-2021 at 09:23 AM.
10-04-2021, 10:33 AM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
At this point, with... I dunno, decades, since the last fast super tele, IMO if the lack of a 600/4 or similar lens is what's causing an user to be dissatisfied with the brand, it's mostly self-inflicted dissatisfaction.

Personally I'd think that the most efficient way for Ricoh to go around this, if they were to try, would be a 300/2.8 and a good quality TC. More kinds of shooter might like such a lens as well, so it would be a less "nichest of the niche" lens than a very long tele.
Agreed. A 300/2.8 with converters would morph into a 450/4 and 600/5.6.
10-04-2021, 10:51 AM   #135
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With optical lens design software, in a few hours they can output a lot of different design variants, print out the result and it costs nothing to keep Pentaxian's hope high and rejoice about it, even if all this is virtual. The day the lens is physically available for sale, then it's time to consider.
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