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12-07-2021, 02:23 PM   #421
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QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
Umm, plenty photographers shooting film, professionals. Plenty people not going to 'upgrade' to MILC, because they don't enjoy that. I perfonally know couple non pentax and there are even more I do not know personally, and this is 'just' at Finland.

Might not mean much to you, but honestly, I'm through with this 'discussion'. Have a good day
‘Film’ is a completely different subject, and has zero connection to either smart phones or MILC.
People who shoot film could easily use view cameras or range finder cameras, and neither have any connection to DSLR.
In fact, many who ‘shoot film’ may actually be interested in using chemicals in the darkroom, and have zero interest in digital anything.

12-07-2021, 02:35 PM   #422
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Seems like a good time to post this...
Timely post, yes.

I recall that interview. It was quite well done, IMO.

I think that Ricoh Imaging's outlook has continued to evolve, as suggested by the Pentax Principles and the company's recent efforts to convey their message about the joy of photography.

- Craig

Last edited by c.a.m; 12-07-2021 at 03:56 PM.
12-07-2021, 02:41 PM   #423
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
‘Film’ is a completely different subject, and has zero connection to either smart phones or MILC.
People who shoot film could easily use view cameras or range finder cameras, and neither have any connection to DSLR.
In fact, many who ‘shoot film’ may actually be interested in using chemicals in the darkroom, and have zero interest in digital anything.
The point is, that not each and everyone jumps on the latest bandwagon. Some move back to film, or had remained there all along, perhaps alongside digital, others stay with their dslr, there's a variety of options taken.
These things are not just linear.
12-07-2021, 03:22 PM   #424
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QuoteOriginally posted by BROO Quote
All it is going to take is Canon and Nikon to continue to supply DSLR cameras and the Richoh strategy to wait for the 'great migration back' will fall over.
It is a lousy strategy to hope your competitors go away so you can survive.
It is a lousy strategy because you've made it up Strategies made up on forums are either brilliant or lousy - and neither would work.
Pentax managed to survive quite some time despite the strong competition from Canon, Nikon and others. Their real strategy is heavily based on the new products.

Besides, I very much doubt Canon and Nikon will (both) launch new DSLR products. Without these, their DSLR lines will fade.

12-07-2021, 03:48 PM - 2 Likes   #425
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Seems like a good time to post this...


Hiroki Sugahara: Currently, mirrorless is a newcomer, so of course many users are very interested in the new systems, they want to use [them]. But after one or two years, some users who changed their system from DSLR to mirrorless come back to the DSLR again.
Note the use of the word “some”, which several people have expanded to “all”.

By “several”, I particularly mean some people who write on commercial photography sites, and who feel a compulsion to sneer at any make that isn’t amongst their sponsors.
12-07-2021, 06:34 PM - 1 Like   #426
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Besides, I very much doubt Canon and Nikon will (both) launch new DSLR products. Without these, their DSLR lines will fade.
Canon announced early last year that they will create no new EF lenses for DSLR "unless photographers demand more", although they will continue to support existing lenses. That certainly does sound like an intention to "fade".
12-07-2021, 07:18 PM   #427
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It is a lousy strategy because you've made it up Strategies made up on forums are either brilliant or lousy - and neither would work.
Pentax managed to survive quite some time despite the strong competition from Canon, Nikon and others. Their real strategy is heavily based on the new products.

Besides, I very much doubt Canon and Nikon will (both) launch new DSLR products. Without these, their DSLR lines will fade.
I think Canon and Nikon "could" sell new SLRs. There are plenty of photographers who are fine with OVFs and have full complements of lenses and would be fine with buying a D870 in a few years or whatever the D850 was called. Odds are pretty good that Nikon is going to dump the F mount entirely pretty soon except for the very highest end. They'll continue to sell lenses and bodies for another five or six years, but I don't think there will be much newly designed gear for that line up.

12-07-2021, 07:20 PM   #428
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Seems like a good time to post this...

A couple years ago, Dave Etchells (once E-I-C of Imaging-Resource) interviewed several executives of Ricoh Imaging. It was from this interview that some photography websites (ahem) decided to post clickbait headlines stating that Ricoh predicted most MILC users would return to DSLR. Here is a segment of that interview, which I feel includes necessary context for how Ricoh anticipates Pentax's presence in the market to play out.

Dave Etchells: ...This is maybe just another way of asking the question about mirrorless, but while the overall market for interchangeable-lens is decreasing, DSLR is decreasing more rapidly. How has that been felt within Ricoh, and what are the ways that you intend to combat that general decline?


Hiroki Sugahara: Currently, mirrorless is a newcomer, so of course many users are very interested in the new systems, they want to use [them]. But after one or two years, some users who changed their system from DSLR to mirrorless come back to the DSLR again.





Medium-format DSLRs are coming, and mirrorless converts will return! Ricoh Q&A from CP+
Thanks @luftfluss.


What I find interesting is their commitment to MF. I think from this you can surmise the replacement for the 645z was in development mid 2019 and could well be released at CP+ 2022.

Higher IQ but expensive🤔
12-07-2021, 07:59 PM   #429
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul the Sunman Quote
Canon announced early last year that they will create no new EF lenses for DSLR "unless photographers demand more", although they will continue to support existing lenses. That certainly does sound like an intention to "fade".
They may have already produced all the EF lenses their users need/want right now.
The question is whether they will produce bodies - they already have produced so much that I may not see any noticeable "fading" in the time I have left {I am currently 20 years younger than my Dad was at his death}.
12-08-2021, 12:25 AM   #430
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think Canon and Nikon "could" sell new SLRs. There are plenty of photographers who are fine with OVFs and have full complements of lenses and would be fine with buying a D870 in a few years or whatever the D850 was called. Odds are pretty good that Nikon is going to dump the F mount entirely pretty soon except for the very highest end. They'll continue to sell lenses and bodies for another five or six years, but I don't think there will be much newly designed gear for that line up.
"Could". Let's take a look at the CIPA market - the DSLRs have less than half the average value than MILCs. And that's Canon and Nikon.
OK, part of that is them not even trying to sell higher-end DSLRs. But I'd say the mirrorless market's numbers looks much better to them.

IMO - and this is just my personal take - at most I expect one or two new Canikon DSLRs to help selling remaining lenses.
12-08-2021, 12:38 AM   #431
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QuoteOriginally posted by Smolk Quote
There are new emulsions coming to market, which shows that film isn't dead. It may not be at the levels of the last century peak - but that might be a good thing, given the silver emulsions and all that jazz.
Yeah, Numbers might no be big, but film is not dead
12-08-2021, 12:44 AM   #432
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
They may have already produced all the EF lenses their users need/want right now.
Right, pretty much everything is covered, so one could get by with the existing lenses (assuming they don't discontinue more of them, and non-redundant options). But these lenses are aging, and I very much doubt they'd be replaced. For example you don't really have an up-to-date 50mm, and you probably never have.
That's one of the reasons I'd like Pentax to move faster.
12-08-2021, 12:51 AM   #433
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
‘Film’ is a completely different subject, and has zero connection to either smart phones or MILC.
People who shoot film could easily use view cameras or range finder cameras, and neither have any connection to DSLR.
In fact, many who ‘shoot film’ may actually be interested in using chemicals in the darkroom, and have zero interest in digital anything.
QuoteOriginally posted by Smolk Quote
The point is, that not each and everyone jumps on the latest bandwagon. Some move back to film, or had remained there all along, perhaps alongside digital, others stay with their dslr, there's a variety of options taken.
These things are not just linear.
Why I quoted both of you, is that I see what Reh321 is going for and response from Smolk is what I do agree with.

And given the post made by lufluss, this is what Ricoh guys are thinking about too. Ofcourse, there are people who go with latest of the latest and be more than happy. But there are people who have preferences elsewhere. Shooting with Film and all that is what they do enjoy, and there has not come anything what will completelly give equal/better result with more recent tech. Like MF film shooters or bigger format, will not get that with modern cameras, craft and all that included to this is one thing more. This is so called overall feeling of your photography/creating images.That side of thinking is not going anywhere.
12-08-2021, 05:38 AM   #434
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Right, pretty much everything is covered, so one could get by with the existing lenses (assuming they don't discontinue more of them, and non-redundant options). But these lenses are aging, and I very much doubt they'd be replaced. For example you don't really have an up-to-date 50mm, and you probably never have.
That's one of the reasons I'd like Pentax to move faster.
The latest 50mm is plenty big and plenty “perfect”.
They could produce a “limited” lens I suppose, but they do have sales data, and much more information of where the market is moving.
Even in their strongest days, they did not produce every conceivable lens - no 45mm Takumar, for example.
12-08-2021, 06:04 AM - 2 Likes   #435
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The latest 50mm is plenty big and plenty “perfect”.
They could produce a “limited” lens I suppose, but they do have sales data, and much more information of where the market is moving.
Even in their strongest days, they did not produce every conceivable lens - no 45mm Takumar, for example.
I think Kunzite was talking about Canon with regard to the modern 50mm. The EOS 50s aren't particularly recent vintage.

Clearly Pentax is updating lenses, they are just taking their time about it. As far as a limited with 50-ish coverage, I think the FA 43 is close enough that it should work.
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