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12-09-2008, 07:03 AM   #16
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I think a mount change would just be too foolish to expect at this point: lens lines don't just drop out of the sky, and such a move would pretty much alienate all the people who even know who they are. It doesn't seem there's any engineering reason whatsoever to change mounts now, what are they going to do, become a maker of more-expensive cameras you can't get lenses for?

Looks to me like they need to deal with their quality control issues: it's truly ridiculous what you hear about a 'professional' lens (pretty much the flagship lens at that) coming out with so many poor copies. That's a good way to not get any marketshare from people who need to trust their gear.

Seems I got a bad FA 50 brand new, (And here I thought I was starting off playing it safe and getting something I knew would be just right) and it was about my second impulse to cancel my K20d order and run screaming to Canon, despite all the clear advantages of Pentax for me. Not a good first impression.

Obviously, one of those advantages is it being possible to get hold of better stuff than I could otherwise afford, and quality control costs money, but particularly with those DA* lenses, bad copies shouldn't have been getting out the door in such numbers, that's a great way to shoot your reputation in the foot.

For me, well, I can be patient and hopefully eventually spend less, but this could be part of why you don't see much Pentax in retail, no retailer wants to deal with a lot of stuff coming back, ...it can make the whole store look bad, among other concerns.

Hopefully, Pentax won't make any foolish moves... the best thing they can do is just Get It Right.

12-09-2008, 07:45 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Think of the way Nikon has done it, where they effectively have two lens mounts. The low end bodies require lenses that have certain modern amenities such as AF, microchips built in, that sort of thing, but if you move to the high end stuff, you have a great amount of backwards compatibility with lenses, though I believe non AI lenses can no longer be used with any Nikon.
That would be the equivalent to our pre-A series lenses, I suppose.
In fairness to Nikon, you can still mount most of the older lenses (not sure which ones have to be modified to fit) to the D40 still, though one would have to go at it full-manual.

I like Pentax's take on backwards compatibility - the magical green button (or its lower-model equivalent) on all their DSLRs. It sets them way, way apart from Nikon where you'd have to move up to the D300 and upwards to be able to meter with old lenses. It's a value-added feature which doesn't cost much to implement.

QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I think it would be a HUGE mistake to come out with a new mount. Think about the consequences of a move like that. Suddenly, every piece of gear owned by the members of this forum hits a dead end. So we have to choose between sticking with a system that we know will never get better or else selling the equipment we have at a huge loss (because it's a dying system) and re-buying everything. And, if we all have to re-buy from scratch, who's to say that we'd go Pentax again? I think that the backwards compatibility is one of the major things that's holding people in the Pentax camp.
Agreed. I was lured to Pentax partly because of the possibility of using older lenses much more easily than I would with other systems.
12-09-2008, 07:57 AM   #18
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Oh, and as for new film bodies, one could dream they'd work out a way to reissue the MZ-S, but more realistically, I think it's only a matter of time before those magnificent madmen at Cosina-Voigtlander come up with something old school. They're basically taking Nikon FG chassis they've got all the stuff to make, swapping out the plastic parts that made those suck so much, and building lovely rangefinders around them. They know how to make money in a specialty market, and I bet they have their old K-mount body bits to start turning out again, too: if it ever comes about that it's needful or feasible to compete with the classics, (I think that's what did for their screw-mount SLR, if it hadn't always been intended as a limited run in the first place) I bet they'll be all over it. If the DSLRs revive interest in the brand, it just might happen someday. They're mad. Brilliant, but mad.
12-09-2008, 08:08 AM   #19
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From the title of this thread, I thought "Big Ben" Roethlisberger was stepping in...

12-09-2008, 08:14 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
They may be going to pull a mount change like Canon did with the FD to EOS move but with a really dedicated KAF derived mount that will only take newer lenses.
Brilliant! Then I can switch to nikon and my friends will stop making fun of me for having a weird brand camera.
12-09-2008, 08:18 AM   #21
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My 500th post and some wild predictions

IMO the most interesting quote from the report is:

"Essentially, the products we are now producing and selling were developed last
summer or autumn, with a roadmap that lacked strategy in my view. As I said in the previous meeting, we remade a completely new roadmap for the next fiscal year in accordance with the "scrap & build" policy: creating unique cameras of a new and different field, and releasing and commencing the marketing of interchangeable lenses at the same time as new cameras."

What that new strategy would mean? IMO the only working one is to sidestep the current "classes" of DSLR with interleaved cameras that can appeal to both the upper and lower potential customers. Let me explain:

The K-m will become cheaper and it will be the entry gate to the K-mount system. It's advantages are the 2 kit lenses that provide a fl of 18-200 (27-300) in stabilized optics. Nothing special so far but the interesting part begins now.

K200D successor COULD be a K20D in different clothes ... err, body. And I mean "K20D" with all its amenities: pentaprism, 2 wheels control maybe even GPS module. Now if Pentax can sell the K20D @ under 700USD and about 620 Euro I see no reason why they couldn't sell a smaller, more compact and lighter model build in more volume for the same amount. They'll need desperately 2 things to make it sellable and arguably the best offer on the market in price/features/quality: a good LV and weather sealed consumer lenses in form of BOTH kit lens and a longer DA zoom (18-105) and maybe a ws version of the DA 18-250. You can see the insistence of Hoya on this features in the quoted paragraph.
I take as certain an improved version of the 14,6Mp sensor and a new AF system (the same new module but less AF points than the K20D's successor - 9 or 11 points I think) and a bigger LCD on the back (maybe we'll lose the LCD on top for cost reduction and target audience purposes).
This camera will provide a very tempting proposition in this times of economical downfall for people that will seek more and more the best value for their money and less the front badge. Remember that C and N both have to keep some features off their entry and even mid level cameras for reasons that has to do with their upper range or their marketing policy (no in body stabilization maybe ever for them). Also the 14 Mp sensor was quoted by Samsung as their choice for the micro mount camera TBL in 2010 so it is in the cards as mainstream sensor and the more they make the lower the cost per unit will get.

The "ubber camera" could very well be the most innovative proposition for a long time on the market. Remember the phrase: "creating unique cameras of a new and different field"?. Pentax at the moment is not tied up by a single sensor manufacturer, the times when they had the left over's from Sony's table are long over and their official partner is arguably one of the largest semiconductor company in the world. So what I see is a camera that will fight both lower end FF and higher end APS-C with the biggest sensor they can make with a single step process. The size doesn't matter much (APS-H or else) but it will be at least 30% larger in area IMHO and both Samsung and Pentax will throw all their prowess in this puppy. Also this camera could employ a smart crop factor for the DA lenses based on their individual characteristics determined by Pentax. If you mount a DA lens the camera will let you select the crop factor (like we select the fl for SR purposes on older lenses) so the lens won't vignette too much and/or have bad corners. This crop factor could be 1,5x for some or at your choice 1,5-1,4-1,3 for others (DA 70 for example).
So, at least we can have a 13-15 Mp crop for strictly APS-C lenses or over 20 Mp in original size for a reasonable price.

The 3 DSLR cameras will be:
K20D GPS - early 2009 - about 15% more than the "regular" K20D;
K20D's successor - spring 2009 - they just officialy postponed DA* 60-250 for Spring 2009 - "and releasing and commencing the marketing of interchangeable lenses at the same time as new cameras";
K200D successor - as close as possible (maybe in the same time) .

645D could be a victim of the current state of the economy or maybe not.

Obviously:

- the 2 new cameras will have new image processors;
- no new mounts

Regards,
Radu
12-09-2008, 08:29 AM   #22
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I'd add a 16-50mm 2.8 SDM if...

I'd buy a 16-50 2.8 if quality was assured without having to ship back for better samples. I've read some have gone thru 4 samples to get an acceptable copy. I've already read of SDM inlens motors burning out too.

So for my K20D I bought 29 days ago I'll only use K Mount glass I already own. Its too bad that pentax cannot make predictably good samples of this flagship zoom. On the otherhand the 50-135mm 2.8 SDM always gets great reviews. But its not a lens I need with existing glass in my bag.

Pentax is already creating odd k-mounts, look at unissued 55mm 1.4 SDM and 17-70 specs and realize these two have no screwdrive af. So its either manual focus or SDM body only for autofocus function. Look at the two new "L" lenses with plastic mounts instead of metal. Sigma HSM lenses do not have screwdrive af either. Makes me wonder if Pentax is working with Sigma on these new lens mounts that only autofocus on SDM bodies.

If Samsung launches their own 4/3 rds in 2009 as reported I assume pentax will get pulled along with the decision. I assume whatever Hoya wants ,then pentax will get pushed into that direction too. Samsung and Hoya are the deciders for Pentax products now. Pentax is Hoya's company and pentax makes no aps-c sensors.

I lived thru the Canon abandonment of FD system mount infavor of Eos. I used to be quite pissed off about it and was certain i'd never buy eos. However now that I own Eos (this year) I SEE the very fast and accurate autofocus L Series offers so now in hindsight I say it was good for canon to orphan the old mount. If pentax does this too, over time it will be good. But they'll likely loose many current users who'll buy other brands instead of waiting several years for the next pentax logo'd lens system to be somewhat appealing. Likely pentaxians will buy Nikon as pentax owners seem to really love the idea of going Nikon over Olympus 4/3 and Canon Eos.

It should be an intersting year for Pentax:

Making changes in a global recession instead of improving their Vietnam produced lens' quality control.

I'd love to buy a 16-50mm 2.8 SDM if I KNEW I could get a great sample for a competetive price from the get~go.

Anyways, K20D is a stellar dslr. I have zero regrets buying it last month.





QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
I think a mount change would just be too foolish to expect at this point: lens lines don't just drop out of the sky, and such a move would pretty much alienate all the people who even know who they are. It doesn't seem there's any engineering reason whatsoever to change mounts now, what are they going to do, become a maker of more-expensive cameras you can't get lenses for?

Looks to me like they need to deal with their quality control issues: it's truly ridiculous what you hear about a 'professional' lens (pretty much the flagship lens at that) coming out with so many poor copies. That's a good way to not get any marketshare from people who need to trust their gear.

Seems I got a bad FA 50 brand new, (And here I thought I was starting off playing it safe and getting something I knew would be just right) and it was about my second impulse to cancel my K20d order and run screaming to Canon, despite all the clear advantages of Pentax for me. Not a good first impression.

Obviously, one of those advantages is it being possible to get hold of better stuff than I could otherwise afford, and quality control costs money, but particularly with those DA* lenses, bad copies shouldn't have been getting out the door in such numbers, that's a great way to shoot your reputation in the foot.

For me, well, I can be patient and hopefully eventually spend less, but this could be part of why you don't see much Pentax in retail, no retailer wants to deal with a lot of stuff coming back, ...it can make the whole store look bad, among other concerns.

Hopefully, Pentax won't make any foolish moves... the best thing they can do is just Get It Right.
12-09-2008, 11:00 AM   #23
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Yeah. I mean, really, that 16-50 would be a dream lens for me if they'd just squeeze a few more millimeters on the long end, were that feasible (I'm pretty attached to the 85mm FOV on film,) ...I'd be starting to save now, practically. As it is, I'm not really planning on one, unless my habits change a lot and I really want something that goes down to 16. (stuff that wide is to me, mostly just for a bit of fun and pretty utilitarian snapshootery: I just don't want to carry a separate wide until maybe I can afford a little Limited one, and that's way down the priority list. ) ..I'm not figuring it's a great idea to try my luck with used ones, except maybe here where people can say if it's a good copy)

Anyway, yeah, even if they had to do something special just to make sure most of those 16-50s going out were trouble free, they probably should have done that. You don't want to be giving people the impression that a bad lens is the best you can do.

As for the FD-EOS transition, Canon nearly lost me with the T-series, and the cheapification of a lot of the lenses for compactness cause everyone wanted light and small. I nearly went Olympus, then the T90 came out and I figured there was hope yet.

The big difference here, though, is that the FD mount was a legacy of the original Canonflex, and the mount just wasn't made for body-driven AF. It was made to never, ever, wear out (at least not from bearing surfaces defining the lens position: no matter how many times you mount or unmount things on a camera, the surfaces that define where the lens is stays the same. Possibly overengineered, but this was the rationale.)

Pentax isn't being held back by a concern like that: I gather they're shaving costs and weight by making some lenses electronic only, but there's no reason to take the gamble of a lens mount change.

12-09-2008, 01:35 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
3 new bodies huh. Well what's the guess? Entry level, mid and high end?
Already written his another place: my entirely uneducated guess is:

1) The updated K20 rumoured here and there, tba very soon.

2) A new Kxxx (K300 or K-c) with the K20 sensor and a few other related goodies, in a (hopefully new) mid-level body. Announced for PMA, hopefully.

3) The flagship (K1d or 645d or ...), announced sometime in 2009.

With the emphasis on weather-proof bodies, the new K-m seems a bit out of place...
12-09-2008, 06:49 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
K20D and 200D are due for (urgent) replacement. Km will need a mid life upgrade during 2009 to keep it competitive. I would expect the K30D and 300D to move upmarket gradually as the KM holds the bottom slot.

What do you mean "urgent"? Last time I checked, it's still a class leader in MP and weathersealing and value. I did extensive competitive research before buying and all it needs is the following:

1) 900K, 3" screen - just like the D90, D300 and 50D
2) 4-5 fps
3) faster focus speed, esp in low light

And *maybe* HD movie recording.

And that's really all it is to compete against cameras costing 40 to 100% more that were released later than it was.... so all in all, it's still the best for the $, by far, and with the recent price drop, will be so for a long time. The D90 was the most competitive offering at the $999 price point, and trust me, I looked at that very closely.
12-09-2008, 07:39 PM   #26
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Whatever the new cameras are, I hope they keep the "d" dropped from the name like the k2000.
So hopefully we will see the k300 and k30 (not k300d and k30d)
12-21-2008, 06:59 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
The "ubber camera" could very well be the most innovative proposition for a long time on the market. Remember the phrase: "creating unique cameras of a new and different field"?. Radu


A unique camera in a different field simply means what they say; small, sturdy weather sealed cameras. Such cameras do not exist. A sensor larger than APS-C and not FF would be madness for Pentax (or anyone else) at present. What we will see almost certainly is K200D and K20D replacements built around the K-m chassis.
As for features; expect upgrades but nothing revolutionary.
12-21-2008, 08:58 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
A unique camera in a different field simply means what they say; small, sturdy weather sealed cameras. Such cameras do not exist. A sensor larger than APS-C and not FF would be madness for Pentax (or anyone else) at present. What we will see almost certainly is K200D and K20D replacements built around the K-m chassis.
As for features; expect upgrades but nothing revolutionary.
Like a white one??? sorry couldn't resist.
12-21-2008, 10:44 AM   #29
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A camera with full K20D capabilities and external controls in a K2000-size body, sturdy and fully sealed, with maybe a few more weathersealed lenses of an actually affordable and compact nature, would be great.
12-21-2008, 11:17 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
A camera with full K20D capabilities and external controls in a K2000-size body, sturdy and fully sealed, with maybe a few more weathersealed lenses of an actually affordable and compact nature, would be great.
I would also like a pony.
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