SONY (In the Sh@#)

*isteve · 12-10-2008, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Blue

Mergers can be a lot more complicated than that. These were just the Pentax people. It was not a merger in reality. Hoya acquired Pentax and turned it into a division. I suspect the world economy had just as much to do with it. I get the impression from Suzuki that there could be more shrinkage coming for the "consumer" side of Pentax.

The camera division was restructured in Europe long before the takeover mainly because it had a woefully innefficient and dated country management system. Subsequent restructuring post buyout was because several areas in the medical field did not require separate distribution and sales channels. The camera side is actually growing again.

**Sailor** · 12-10-2008, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Adrian Owerko

Sony Slimming Down - Forbes.com

It looks like PENTAX got out of the SONY bed at the right time.. Samsung may a bit more stable at the momment for PENTAX. Were as for Nikon?
"However, cash-rich Samsung has fared better of late than heavily-indebted Sony, boosted by the won's slide, which has made South Korean exports cheaper "

Unfortunately, companies in almost every category from electronics to heavy manufacturing and in all countries are doing the same thing. It's a tough time, it'll pass - but some things won't be much fun until it does.

Still - regardless of the position of the stock market, I find that the joy of sailing, photography, playing music, reading, driving my cars (agressively) and - most of all - playing with my granddaughter and enjoying a close family are as satisfying as ever (no matter what I'm worth on paper).

Jer

MoiVous · 12-10-2008, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Samsungian

There are many prepaid 5D2 orders from September 17th foward that Canon cannot fully fill yet. This is a $2699 body or $3499 with kit lens. Recession or not manyaround the globe have already paid the admission price and are hoping for a Christmas delivery. It will likely not happen because demand has outstripped manufacturing ability.

That said, I hate buying new dslrs freshly launched and again I must add how incredibly impressed with Pentax K20D I bought 30 days ago once the price settled down and that got me interested. ISO 1600 Rocks!

If you are on the fence considering K20D , buy it now before we go from Recession to Depression and before its upgrade launches for two times the money, again.

Interesting point, particularly the brand new 5DII dSLR, which already has reported some problems.....

In the meantime, as Adrian and others say, Hoya/Pentax may have made the correct move before the S*$t hit the fan! Time will tell.

Meantime, I'm thinking of supporting our govt policy of spend - that Tammy 90 is looking like it needs a home!

**RobA_Oz** · 12-19-2008, 10:13 PM

Nothing like a bit of schadenfreude, is there?

I suspect Sony's problems are more to do with their push into the DSLR market than anything else, the GFC aside. Against all the predictions of the pundits, they have grabbed a fair slice of the market since taking over Konica-Minolta's camera division, but you don't go from rank outsider to major player on the back of product alone, when you don't offer something entirely new.

If I'm right, Sony's initial DSLR products have probably been a loss leader or at best a low-profit line, as a deliberate strategy to get them established in the marketplace. On that basis, they possibly entered the market about one year too late.

However, having won the HD video disc war with their Blue-Ray system, and having a solid reputation for their goods in the consumer electronics and P&S camera market, I don't expect them to be going away any time soon.

Mountain Vision · 12-19-2008, 11:30 PM

Sometimes sitting back and watching your competition stumble, and then winning buy default is not a bad thing.

I can see the K20D staying in production for a while as Lindy eluded to from demo days.

If you think about it, it's exactly what Pentax did with the DS, DL, and then the K100D/Super. They like to keep the production lines running with as little disruption as possible. And using older sensors, or the same sensor (like the ist series and K100 series all used the same Sony 6MP sensor, now the baby Ks are using the 10MP sensor).

What this does is reduce the cost per camera as the line runs. So they can keep prices steady or drop them, but still maintain the same profits.

The K20D and K10D, and K200D and Km are all good cameras, build and IQ wise and a fair value, IF the economy doesn't improve not everyone will be living on the streets (I assume) and there will still be cars, houses, computers and cameras sold. But people might tighten the belt a bit and look more closely at price/value ratios. this is where Pentax sitting back might be a good move.

Samsungian · 12-20-2008, 06:42 AM

Having both the older 2005 tech 5D the current 2008 K20D and spent some time with Late 2008 5DMarkII I remain impressed with the numerous features on K20D. Sure wish K20D was full frame but other than that its an exceptional camera. Had it not been affordable I would not have added it. Since it can be affordable, you know once the price settles I'd consider it the best pentax value your money can buy. it seems alot of pentaxians don't own it (yet). If its around another year that may change.

Years ago we got interested in Subarus. Subaru makes cars every year however thay change body styles every 3 or 4 years. Each year a certain model will get different paint or interior combinations from prior year but sheet metal remains the same. Personally I find this brilliant and likely cuts their R&D costs. If you have a winner why should it be scraped annually for another design?

Originally posted by Mountain Vision

Sometimes sitting back and watching your competition stumble, and then winning buy default is not a bad thing.

I can see the K20D staying in production for a while as Lindy eluded to from demo days.

If you think about it, it's exactly what Pentax did with the DS, DL, and then the K100D/Super. They like to keep the production lines running with as little disruption as possible. And using older sensors, or the same sensor (like the ist series and K100 series all used the same Sony 6MP sensor, now the baby Ks are using the 10MP sensor).

What this does is reduce the cost per camera as the line runs. So they can keep prices steady or drop them, but still maintain the same profits.

The K20D and K10D, and K200D and Km are all good cameras, build and IQ wise and a fair value, IF the economy doesn't improve not everyone will be living on the streets (I assume) and there will still be cars, houses, computers and cameras sold. But people might tighten the belt a bit and look more closely at price/value ratios. this is where Pentax sitting back might be a good move.

frogger · 12-20-2008, 09:22 AM

I guess their gaming division hasn't been the cash cow for the rest of the company it once was in the PS2 days due to Nintendo's resurgence.

reeftool · 12-20-2008, 10:05 AM

I think the coming year or so is going to be rough on all the electronics industry as people are not likely to be buying anything they don't need. Its already slowed the auto industry to a near standstill and that includes ALL the carmakers, not just GM and Chrysler. I'm not planning any purchases other than nesessities. There is a lot of uncertainty and in uncertain times people will not spend on what they don't need so as long as the comupter, camera, stereo,etc are working, the older car is still running good, they aren't getting replaced. Some manufacturers are not going to survive this.
I actually did buy a new car this year because our old 97 Ford Escort with 261K miles finally crapped out. I was hoping to get through this winter with it but that didn't happen and doing major repairs on a car with that many miles is wasted money.
I would hate to see any of the camera manufacturers go under. Far too many have disappeared in the last 20 or so years and to come out of this recession with only 1 or 2 SLR makers left would really be terrible. A company as large as Sony will probably make it because they are making lots of different products but they could easily just decide to drop out of the camera business if they decide it is loosing money. The same can be said for Panasonic and Samsung. I hope things turn around. The current competition in the DSLR market has brought a lot of innovation and affordable prices and all of us have benefited.

raz-0 · 12-20-2008, 10:52 AM

Most of Sony's problems are due to buying a market victory for blu-ray. It cost them dearly, and left them relatively cash-poor. The PS3 is also losing them a lot of money. They have taken restructuring cost hits this year in dealing with their TV manufacturing and LCD panel manufacturing which are significant as well. All while losing market share in P&S cameras, video game consoles, and home electronics.

The DSLR division cost them money, but it has been pocket change compared to the other things. They have stated they are comitted to the A900 and other high end, aspirational products (specifically in the home theater area) as they see the recession as an indicator that people will stop ging out for fun and stay home. In that process people will improve their home in terms of fun and comfort, even if not while spending as much money as they used to.

I think that logic is kind of messed up, but that is what they want. I'm sure a number of those job cuts come from manufacturing video cameras. Once again paraphrasing, but they basically said we have sold video cameras through multiple recessions and they are about as discretionary as spending gets and they are the first thing to go in terms of sales.

**Pål Jensen** · 12-20-2008, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by raz-0

Most of Sony's problems are due to buying a market victory for blu-ray. It cost them dearly, and left them relatively cash-poor. .

They are doing the same thing with DSLR's; they have been giving away at a loss their entry level cameras thereby buying market share. It is not sustainable.

**barondla** · 12-20-2008, 06:38 PM

Saw a Sony inteview with a top Sony video official. He basically said that since Sony helped Blu ray win the video war it was only right for Blu ray to help them win the console wars. He then went on to say that they would beat the other gaming machines. Said Nintendo was only for gaming families and Sony were for the serious gamer. Would never guess from this arrogant statement that Nintendo Wii sells about as much as Sony & Microsoft together. Would sell more if they could build them. Just amazing.
Other tall tell sign that they are in trouble is the same executive said the PS3 was a ten year machine! Every other platform has had a 5 year projected life. 10 years is a long time in the game/video market.
Games have been recession proof so far. Doubt that will change. They are cheap entertainment. Game sales are up even though most other electronics are down. Sony exec also said people could eat out less or skip a vacation to get PS3 and it would be worth it. Amazing.

Thanks
barondla

Check out POINT & SHOOT CONTEST #13 WINNERS in P&S forum. Enter #14. Any brand camera. Enter now!

Jonson PL · 01-07-2009, 06:56 PM

Thanks for the link, very interesting.

Here was some more info from it :
"With Americans and Europeans now more interested in saving like the Japanese than buying their gadgets, CLSA analyst Atul Goyal forecast last week that Sony's operating profit for fiscal 2009 will plunge from 90.0 billion yen ($972.3 million) to zero..."

12-20-2008, 06:42 AM	#21
Samsungian Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Colorado USA Posts: 1,337	No problems w/minor revisions. K20D is already a great camera Having both the older 2005 tech 5D the current 2008 K20D and spent some time with Late 2008 5DMarkII I remain impressed with the numerous features on K20D. Sure wish K20D was full frame but other than that its an exceptional camera. Had it not been affordable I would not have added it. Since it can be affordable, you know once the price settles I'd consider it the best pentax value your money can buy. it seems alot of pentaxians don't own it (yet). If its around another year that may change. Years ago we got interested in Subarus. Subaru makes cars every year however thay change body styles every 3 or 4 years. Each year a certain model will get different paint or interior combinations from prior year but sheet metal remains the same. Personally I find this brilliant and likely cuts their R&D costs. If you have a winner why should it be scraped annually for another design? Originally posted by Mountain Vision Sometimes sitting back and watching your competition stumble, and then winning buy default is not a bad thing. I can see the K20D staying in production for a while as Lindy eluded to from demo days. If you think about it, it's exactly what Pentax did with the DS, DL, and then the K100D/Super. They like to keep the production lines running with as little disruption as possible. And using older sensors, or the same sensor (like the ist series and K100 series all used the same Sony 6MP sensor, now the baby Ks are using the 10MP sensor). What this does is reduce the cost per camera as the line runs. So they can keep prices steady or drop them, but still maintain the same profits. The K20D and K10D, and K200D and Km are all good cameras, build and IQ wise and a fair value, IF the economy doesn't improve not everyone will be living on the streets (I assume) and there will still be cars, houses, computers and cameras sold. But people might tighten the belt a bit and look more closely at price/value ratios. this is where Pentax sitting back might be a good move.

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12-10-2008, 02:43 PM	#16
*isteve Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 1,187	Originally posted by Blue Mergers can be a lot more complicated than that. These were just the Pentax people. It was not a merger in reality. Hoya acquired Pentax and turned it into a division. I suspect the world economy had just as much to do with it. I get the impression from Suzuki that there could be more shrinkage coming for the "consumer" side of Pentax. The camera division was restructured in Europe long before the takeover mainly because it had a woefully innefficient and dated country management system. Subsequent restructuring post buyout was because several areas in the medical field did not require separate distribution and sales channels. The camera side is actually growing again.

12-10-2008, 04:56 PM	#17
Sailor Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Coastal Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 26,203	Originally posted by Adrian Owerko Sony Slimming Down - Forbes.com It looks like PENTAX got out of the SONY bed at the right time.. Samsung may a bit more stable at the momment for PENTAX. Were as for Nikon? "However, cash-rich Samsung has fared better of late than heavily-indebted Sony, boosted by the won's slide, which has made South Korean exports cheaper " Unfortunately, companies in almost every category from electronics to heavy manufacturing and in all countries are doing the same thing. It's a tough time, it'll pass - but some things won't be much fun until it does. Still - regardless of the position of the stock market, I find that the joy of sailing, photography, playing music, reading, driving my cars (agressively) and - most of all - playing with my granddaughter and enjoying a close family are as satisfying as ever (no matter what I'm worth on paper). Jer

12-10-2008, 05:35 PM	#18
MoiVous Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 677	Originally posted by Samsungian There are many prepaid 5D2 orders from September 17th foward that Canon cannot fully fill yet. This is a $2699 body or $3499 with kit lens. Recession or not manyaround the globe have already paid the admission price and are hoping for a Christmas delivery. It will likely not happen because demand has outstripped manufacturing ability. That said, I hate buying new dslrs freshly launched and again I must add how incredibly impressed with Pentax K20D I bought 30 days ago once the price settled down and that got me interested. ISO 1600 Rocks! If you are on the fence considering K20D , buy it now before we go from Recession to Depression and before its upgrade launches for two times the money, again. Interesting point, particularly the brand new 5DII dSLR, which already has reported some problems..... In the meantime, as Adrian and others say, Hoya/Pentax may have made the correct move before the S*$t hit the fan! Time will tell. Meantime, I'm thinking of supporting our govt policy of spend - that Tammy 90 is looking like it needs a home!

12-19-2008, 10:13 PM	#19
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,209	Nothing like a bit of schadenfreude, is there? I suspect Sony's problems are more to do with their push into the DSLR market than anything else, the GFC aside. Against all the predictions of the pundits, they have grabbed a fair slice of the market since taking over Konica-Minolta's camera division, but you don't go from rank outsider to major player on the back of product alone, when you don't offer something entirely new. If I'm right, Sony's initial DSLR products have probably been a loss leader or at best a low-profit line, as a deliberate strategy to get them established in the marketplace. On that basis, they possibly entered the market about one year too late. However, having won the HD video disc war with their Blue-Ray system, and having a solid reputation for their goods in the consumer electronics and P&S camera market, I don't expect them to be going away any time soon.

12-19-2008, 11:30 PM	#20
Mountain Vision Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: America's First Wilderness Posts: 529	Sometimes sitting back and watching your competition stumble, and then winning buy default is not a bad thing. I can see the K20D staying in production for a while as Lindy eluded to from demo days. If you think about it, it's exactly what Pentax did with the DS, DL, and then the K100D/Super. They like to keep the production lines running with as little disruption as possible. And using older sensors, or the same sensor (like the ist series and K100 series all used the same Sony 6MP sensor, now the baby Ks are using the 10MP sensor). What this does is reduce the cost per camera as the line runs. So they can keep prices steady or drop them, but still maintain the same profits. The K20D and K10D, and K200D and Km are all good cameras, build and IQ wise and a fair value, IF the economy doesn't improve not everyone will be living on the streets (I assume) and there will still be cars, houses, computers and cameras sold. But people might tighten the belt a bit and look more closely at price/value ratios. this is where Pentax sitting back might be a good move.

12-20-2008, 09:22 AM	#22
frogger Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Toronto, ON, CA Posts: 162	I guess their gaming division hasn't been the cash cow for the rest of the company it once was in the PS2 days due to Nintendo's resurgence.

12-20-2008, 10:05 AM	#23
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,555	I think the coming year or so is going to be rough on all the electronics industry as people are not likely to be buying anything they don't need. Its already slowed the auto industry to a near standstill and that includes ALL the carmakers, not just GM and Chrysler. I'm not planning any purchases other than nesessities. There is a lot of uncertainty and in uncertain times people will not spend on what they don't need so as long as the comupter, camera, stereo,etc are working, the older car is still running good, they aren't getting replaced. Some manufacturers are not going to survive this. I actually did buy a new car this year because our old 97 Ford Escort with 261K miles finally crapped out. I was hoping to get through this winter with it but that didn't happen and doing major repairs on a car with that many miles is wasted money. I would hate to see any of the camera manufacturers go under. Far too many have disappeared in the last 20 or so years and to come out of this recession with only 1 or 2 SLR makers left would really be terrible. A company as large as Sony will probably make it because they are making lots of different products but they could easily just decide to drop out of the camera business if they decide it is loosing money. The same can be said for Panasonic and Samsung. I hope things turn around. The current competition in the DSLR market has brought a lot of innovation and affordable prices and all of us have benefited.

12-20-2008, 10:52 AM	#24
raz-0 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Central NJ Posts: 470	Most of Sony's problems are due to buying a market victory for blu-ray. It cost them dearly, and left them relatively cash-poor. The PS3 is also losing them a lot of money. They have taken restructuring cost hits this year in dealing with their TV manufacturing and LCD panel manufacturing which are significant as well. All while losing market share in P&S cameras, video game consoles, and home electronics. The DSLR division cost them money, but it has been pocket change compared to the other things. They have stated they are comitted to the A900 and other high end, aspirational products (specifically in the home theater area) as they see the recession as an indicator that people will stop ging out for fun and stay home. In that process people will improve their home in terms of fun and comfort, even if not while spending as much money as they used to. I think that logic is kind of messed up, but that is what they want. I'm sure a number of those job cuts come from manufacturing video cameras. Once again paraphrasing, but they basically said we have sold video cameras through multiple recessions and they are about as discretionary as spending gets and they are the first thing to go in terms of sales.

12-20-2008, 12:34 PM	#25
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by raz-0 Most of Sony's problems are due to buying a market victory for blu-ray. It cost them dearly, and left them relatively cash-poor. . They are doing the same thing with DSLR's; they have been giving away at a loss their entry level cameras thereby buying market share. It is not sustainable.

12-20-2008, 06:38 PM	#26
barondla Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: midwest, United States Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,715	Saw a Sony inteview with a top Sony video official. He basically said that since Sony helped Blu ray win the video war it was only right for Blu ray to help them win the console wars. He then went on to say that they would beat the other gaming machines. Said Nintendo was only for gaming families and Sony were for the serious gamer. Would never guess from this arrogant statement that Nintendo Wii sells about as much as Sony & Microsoft together. Would sell more if they could build them. Just amazing. Other tall tell sign that they are in trouble is the same executive said the PS3 was a ten year machine! Every other platform has had a 5 year projected life. 10 years is a long time in the game/video market. Games have been recession proof so far. Doubt that will change. They are cheap entertainment. Game sales are up even though most other electronics are down. Sony exec also said people could eat out less or skip a vacation to get PS3 and it would be worth it. Amazing. Thanks barondla Check out POINT & SHOOT CONTEST #13 WINNERS in P&S forum. Enter #14. Any brand camera. Enter now!

01-07-2009, 06:56 PM	#27
Jonson PL Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Copenhagen Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,842	Thanks for the link, very interesting. Here was some more info from it : "With Americans and Europeans now more interested in saving like the Japanese than buying their gadgets, CLSA analyst Atul Goyal forecast last week that Sony's operating profit for fiscal 2009 will plunge from 90.0 billion yen ($972.3 million) to zero..."