Pentax/RI cooperation with smartphone makers

**BigMackCam** · 01-25-2022, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by BarneyL

Please bear in mind that Ricoh Imaging is not the only entity with rights to 'Pentax' name. Actually, IIRC, rights to Pentax brand still belong to Hoya, they are just licensed to Ricoh. So it might be more about Hoya than Ricoh (although lemono says it's just a fan picture, so it might be just that).

I believe - though I'm not 100% sure - that only Ricoh can use the Pentax brand name in relation to consumer imaging products. Hoya's use of the brand name is, I think, limited to the health sector ("PENTAX Medical" is a subsidiary of Hoya).

**Digitalis** · 01-25-2022, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by BarneyL

Please bear in mind that Ricoh Imaging is not the only entity with rights to 'Pentax' name. Actually, IIRC, rights to Pentax brand still belong to Hoya, they are just licensed to Ricoh.

When I was digging through the Pentax KP manual today* I didn't notice anything indicative of that, under the trademarks section Hoya is never mentioned.

* I was trying to figure out which is the correct AC adapter for the KP for timelapse work, and I'm still a little confused as to which is the right one.

BarneyL · 01-25-2022, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

I believe - though I'm not 100% sure - that only Ricoh can use the Pentax brand name in relation to consumer imaging products. Hoya's use of the brand name is, I think, limited to the health sector ("PENTAX Medical" is a subsidiary of Hoya).

The thing is, this hypothetical Meizu's phone with Pentax logo on it is not Ricoh's product. It's a third party product. Having a right to use a label on your own product is a one thing. Allowing third parties to use it on theirs, is a different story.

**BigMackCam** · 01-25-2022, 01:14 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by BarneyL

The thing is, this hypothetical Meizu's phone with Pentax logo on it is not Ricoh's product. It's a third party product.

The phone is a third party product, but it's likely that Ricoh either (a) designed the camera's lens, (b) collaborated with Meizu's in its design, or (c) approved the design - as per Leica's relationship with Panasonic for compact camera lenses (Panasonic designs the lenses, Leica approves them - and has been known to reject some designs). I don't for one moment believe Ricoh would simply allow someone to use the Pentax brand name on a third-party product without some involvement to ensure its quality. They're not that desperate

Last edited by BigMackCam; 01-25-2022 at 01:24 AM.

BarneyL · 01-25-2022, 01:24 AM

I have a Nokia phone with a Zeiss branded camera module. The Zeiss' actual involvement in this phone is about the image processing software, not the optics.

Also, even if Ricoh designed the lens (or ensured the quality of camera module), it's still not their own consumer product. Licensing agreement with Hoya may permit the use of Pentax brand for such things, but may as well not.

In any case, I seriously doubt this thing is real.

**BigMackCam** · 01-25-2022, 01:29 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by BarneyL

I have a Nokia phone with a Zeiss branded camera module. The Zeiss' actual involvement in this phone is about the image processing software, not the optics.

Right - but the point is, Zeiss was involved. They didn't just allow their brand name to be plastered on the phone. It's the same with Leica and Panasonic, and the same will almost certainly be true of Pentax and Meizu... Ricoh will be involved somehow, whether it's the lens, camera module, image processing software, whatever.

Originally posted by BarneyL

Also, even if Ricoh designed the lens, it's still not their own consumer product. Licensing agreement with Hoya may permit the use of Pentax brand for such things, but may as well not.

Hoya owns the PENTAX Medical brand. Ricoh owns what was the imaging division, and the rights to the PENTAX brand in that specific respect. This prospective collaboration won't have anything to do with Hoya unless Meizu is marketing the phone as some kind of endoscope, and it doesn't strike me as the ideal shape for such purposes. Imagine having that stuck down your throat or up your bum!

BarneyL · 01-25-2022, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

Hoya owns the PENTAX Medical brand. Ricoh owns what was the imaging division. This prospective collaboration won't have anything to do with Hoya unless Meizu is marketing the phone as some kind of endoscope, and it doesn't look like the ideal shape for that

Sigh, I think I'm gonna need to consult @Mistral75 on this one.

**BigMackCam** · 01-25-2022, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by BarneyL

Sigh, I think I'm gonna need to consult @Mistral75 on this one.

By all means... but it's right here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax

Hoya uses PENTAX for medical equipment. Ricoh uses PENTAX for photographic equipment - cameras, lenses and accessories. Seiko uses it (or it certainly did) for wearable lenses (contacts etc.).

Kunzite · 01-25-2022, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by BarneyL

Sigh, I think I'm gonna need to consult @Mistral75 on this one.

Mistral can be occasionally mistaken.

BarneyL · 01-25-2022, 01:56 AM - **1 Like**

My point is the importance of the ownership of the brand, not who uses it for what purpose. We know that Ricoh licenses Pentax name from Hoya because not long ago, there was a stir on this forum concerning that particular license agreement expiring and people getting worried about whether RI was still going to use the brand name.

The owner of the brand dictates the specifics of use to the one getting the license. 'You can use the brand on consumer electronics,' does not necessarily imply 'you can allow third party product to bear the name', regardless of your involvement in that particular product. This sums up my point.

**BigMackCam** · 01-25-2022, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by BarneyL

My point is the importance of the ownership of the brand, not who uses it for what purpose. We know that Ricoh licenses Pentax name from Hoya because not long ago, there was a stir on this forum concerning that particular license agreement expiring and people getting worried about whether RI was still going to use the brand name.

The owner of the brand dictates the specifics of use to the one getting the license. 'You can use the brand on consumer electronics,' does not necessarily imply 'you can allow third party product to bear the name', regardless of your involvement in that particular product. This sums up my point.

Ah, OK... now I see what you mean...

**BigMackCam** · 01-25-2022, 02:24 AM - **1 Like**

This might help clarify:

Dispelling a rumor: on Ricoh's use of the Pentax name - Photo Industry News | PentaxForums.com

Originally posted by Ricoh Imaging:

It is true that Hoya is the owner of the PENTAX trademark, but there are no restrictions or limitations for Ricoh to use the Pentax brand in the camera business. We will continue to offer the Pentax brand cameras beyond 2020.

Whilst the statement doesn't specifically mention use of the brand name in modules of third-party products, I'm pretty sure that sort of thing can be structured legally so that it fits within Ricoh's reasonable use of the trademark, given that it's a consumer photographic product...

**Digitalis** · 01-25-2022, 02:41 AM - **3 Likes**

As I have mentioned before In the not too distant future I see Ricoh acquiring a drone manufacturer or at the very least getting the Pentax name on a drone in some sort of collaboration.

Pentax have often promoted the rugged, durable weatherproofed construction of their cameras and going outside this and producing a long range capable drone would certainly be one way to capitalize on this.

AfterPentax Mark II · 01-25-2022, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

there are no restrictions or limitations for Ricoh to use the Pentax brand in the camera business

The last four words in the quote tell the story, a smartphone is not camera business. It also says (hidden meaning?) that if Ricoh decides to sell the camera business, the new owner needs approval of Hoya. I sincerely hope I am wrong. But on the other hand, what it would be having always a Pentax with you!

Kunzite · 01-25-2022, 03:07 AM - **1 Like**

Are we going to start another "Ricoh will lose rights to use the Pentax brand" nonsense?
It doesn't matter, guys. Ricoh is going forward with the Pentax brand, that's why they are pushing it - since 2019 - instead of phasing it out and replace with theirs. They're not stupid to spend money in promoting Pentax and then realize they can't continue using it.

About this, we might be curious if it's Ricoh - I think that's more likely than Hoya, since it's consumer cameras related and not medical.

01-25-2022, 02:24 AM - 1 Like	#27
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,656	This might help clarify: Dispelling a rumor: on Ricoh's use of the Pentax name - Photo Industry News \| PentaxForums.com Originally posted by Ricoh Imaging: It is true that Hoya is the owner of the PENTAX trademark, but there are no restrictions or limitations for Ricoh to use the Pentax brand in the camera business. We will continue to offer the Pentax brand cameras beyond 2020. Whilst the statement doesn't specifically mention use of the brand name in modules of third-party products, I'm pretty sure that sort of thing can be structured legally so that it fits within Ricoh's reasonable use of the trademark, given that it's a consumer photographic product... Last edited by BigMackCam; 01-25-2022 at 02:35 AM.

01-25-2022, 02:41 AM - 3 Likes	#28
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	As I have mentioned before In the not too distant future I see Ricoh acquiring a drone manufacturer or at the very least getting the Pentax name on a drone in some sort of collaboration. Pentax have often promoted the rugged, durable weatherproofed construction of their cameras and going outside this and producing a long range capable drone would certainly be one way to capitalize on this. Last edited by Digitalis; 01-25-2022 at 03:09 AM.

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01-25-2022, 12:26 AM	#16
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,656	Originally posted by BarneyL Please bear in mind that Ricoh Imaging is not the only entity with rights to 'Pentax' name. Actually, IIRC, rights to Pentax brand still belong to Hoya, they are just licensed to Ricoh. So it might be more about Hoya than Ricoh (although lemono says it's just a fan picture, so it might be just that). I believe - though I'm not 100% sure - that only Ricoh can use the Pentax brand name in relation to consumer imaging products. Hoya's use of the brand name is, I think, limited to the health sector ("PENTAX Medical" is a subsidiary of Hoya).

01-25-2022, 12:33 AM	#17
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by BarneyL Please bear in mind that Ricoh Imaging is not the only entity with rights to 'Pentax' name. Actually, IIRC, rights to Pentax brand still belong to Hoya, they are just licensed to Ricoh. When I was digging through the Pentax KP manual today* I didn't notice anything indicative of that, under the trademarks section Hoya is never mentioned. * I was trying to figure out which is the correct AC adapter for the KP for timelapse work, and I'm still a little confused as to which is the right one.

01-25-2022, 12:55 AM	#18
BarneyL Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 898	Originally posted by BigMackCam I believe - though I'm not 100% sure - that only Ricoh can use the Pentax brand name in relation to consumer imaging products. Hoya's use of the brand name is, I think, limited to the health sector ("PENTAX Medical" is a subsidiary of Hoya). The thing is, this hypothetical Meizu's phone with Pentax logo on it is not Ricoh's product. It's a third party product. Having a right to use a label on your own product is a one thing. Allowing third parties to use it on theirs, is a different story.

01-25-2022, 01:14 AM - 2 Likes	#19
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,656	Originally posted by BarneyL The thing is, this hypothetical Meizu's phone with Pentax logo on it is not Ricoh's product. It's a third party product. The phone is a third party product, but it's likely that Ricoh either (a) designed the camera's lens, (b) collaborated with Meizu's in its design, or (c) approved the design - as per Leica's relationship with Panasonic for compact camera lenses (Panasonic designs the lenses, Leica approves them - and has been known to reject some designs). I don't for one moment believe Ricoh would simply allow someone to use the Pentax brand name on a third-party product without some involvement to ensure its quality. They're not that desperate Last edited by BigMackCam; 01-25-2022 at 01:24 AM.

01-25-2022, 01:24 AM	#20
BarneyL Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 898	I have a Nokia phone with a Zeiss branded camera module. The Zeiss' actual involvement in this phone is about the image processing software, not the optics. Also, even if Ricoh designed the lens (or ensured the quality of camera module), it's still not their own consumer product. Licensing agreement with Hoya may permit the use of Pentax brand for such things, but may as well not. In any case, I seriously doubt this thing is real.

01-25-2022, 01:29 AM - 3 Likes	#21
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,656	Originally posted by BarneyL I have a Nokia phone with a Zeiss branded camera module. The Zeiss' actual involvement in this phone is about the image processing software, not the optics. Right - but the point is, Zeiss was involved. They didn't just allow their brand name to be plastered on the phone. It's the same with Leica and Panasonic, and the same will almost certainly be true of Pentax and Meizu... Ricoh will be involved somehow, whether it's the lens, camera module, image processing software, whatever. Originally posted by BarneyL Also, even if Ricoh designed the lens, it's still not their own consumer product. Licensing agreement with Hoya may permit the use of Pentax brand for such things, but may as well not. Hoya owns the PENTAX Medical brand. Ricoh owns what was the imaging division, and the rights to the PENTAX brand in that specific respect. This prospective collaboration won't have anything to do with Hoya unless Meizu is marketing the phone as some kind of endoscope, and it doesn't strike me as the ideal shape for such purposes. Imagine having that stuck down your throat or up your bum!

01-25-2022, 01:32 AM	#22
BarneyL Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 898	Originally posted by BigMackCam Hoya owns the PENTAX Medical brand. Ricoh owns what was the imaging division. This prospective collaboration won't have anything to do with Hoya unless Meizu is marketing the phone as some kind of endoscope, and it doesn't look like the ideal shape for that Sigh, I think I'm gonna need to consult @Mistral75 on this one.

01-25-2022, 01:37 AM	#23
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,656	Originally posted by BarneyL Sigh, I think I'm gonna need to consult @Mistral75 on this one. By all means... but it's right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax Hoya uses PENTAX for medical equipment. Ricoh uses PENTAX for photographic equipment - cameras, lenses and accessories. Seiko uses it (or it certainly did) for wearable lenses (contacts etc.).

01-25-2022, 01:41 AM	#24
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by BarneyL Sigh, I think I'm gonna need to consult @Mistral75 on this one. Mistral can be occasionally mistaken.

01-25-2022, 01:56 AM - 1 Like	#25
BarneyL Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 898	My point is the importance of the ownership of the brand, not who uses it for what purpose. We know that Ricoh licenses Pentax name from Hoya because not long ago, there was a stir on this forum concerning that particular license agreement expiring and people getting worried about whether RI was still going to use the brand name. The owner of the brand dictates the specifics of use to the one getting the license. 'You can use the brand on consumer electronics,' does not necessarily imply 'you can allow third party product to bear the name', regardless of your involvement in that particular product. This sums up my point.

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01-25-2022, 02:05 AM	#26
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,656	Originally posted by BarneyL My point is the importance of the ownership of the brand, not who uses it for what purpose. We know that Ricoh licenses Pentax name from Hoya because not long ago, there was a stir on this forum concerning that particular license agreement expiring and people getting worried about whether RI was still going to use the brand name. The owner of the brand dictates the specifics of use to the one getting the license. 'You can use the brand on consumer electronics,' does not necessarily imply 'you can allow third party product to bear the name', regardless of your involvement in that particular product. This sums up my point. Ah, OK... now I see what you mean...

01-25-2022, 02:50 AM	#29
AfterPentax Mark II Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 1,458	Originally posted by BigMackCam there are no restrictions or limitations for Ricoh to use the Pentax brand in the camera business The last four words in the quote tell the story, a smartphone is not camera business. It also says (hidden meaning?) that if Ricoh decides to sell the camera business, the new owner needs approval of Hoya. I sincerely hope I am wrong. But on the other hand, what it would be having always a Pentax with you!

01-25-2022, 03:07 AM - 1 Like	#30
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Are we going to start another "Ricoh will lose rights to use the Pentax brand" nonsense? It doesn't matter, guys. Ricoh is going forward with the Pentax brand, that's why they are pushing it - since 2019 - instead of phasing it out and replace with theirs. They're not stupid to spend money in promoting Pentax and then realize they can't continue using it. About this, we might be curious if it's Ricoh - I think that's more likely than Hoya, since it's consumer cameras related and not medical.