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04-16-2022, 11:55 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by TwoUptons Quote
The recent DFA 70-210 f4 in many ways replaces the DA* 60-250 f4 (and is full-frame compatible without modifications).
I don't think it does. FA* is over 2000 grams (or 1755 bare) while DA* is 1230g (or 1040) - over 800g difference. DA60-250 is also shorter by 50mm. Optically - yes. But size is far from optimal for APS-C lens, especially for camera that takes pride in being small and compact. If you want to haul your camera around on some show or event for whole day then you need as small and light lens and camera as possible. FA* lenses are sub optimal to put it mildly.


Plus there is no reason for APS-C lens to be FF compatible really.

04-16-2022, 12:44 PM - 1 Like   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by jersey Quote
I don't think it does. FA* is over 2000 grams (or 1755 bare) while DA* is 1230g (or 1040) - over 800g difference. DA60-250 is also shorter by 50mm. Optically - yes. But size is far from optimal for APS-C lens, especially for camera that takes pride in being small and compact. If you want to haul your camera around on some show or event for whole day then you need as small and light lens and camera as possible. FA* lenses are sub optimal to put it mildly.


Plus there is no reason for APS-C lens to be FF compatible really.
Sure, but the DFA 70-210 f4, which is a better comparison to the DA* 60-250, is 860g with the hood.

I completely agree that there are worlds of difference between a 16-50 made for full frame and one made for APS-C image circles, but nearly all of that goes away at telephoto focal lengths.
I'd be curious to see the size difference, for example, if the DA 70mm limited had been f1.8 like the FA 77... the latter is about double the weight, but it's a stop faster and includes an aperture ring...

The DA* 300mm f4 only isn't DFA because there weren't any full frame Pentax cameras when it was released.
And I doubt the 70-200 2.8 would be much lighter with the reduced image circle. It's massive because it's a highly corrected 70-200 f2.8 lens with excellent optical quality, not because it covers full frame.

-Eric
04-16-2022, 01:41 PM   #123
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But DFA compared do DA* has its issues with IQ. It is more of an equivalent to 55-300 PLM (ok, PLM is longer, but after 200mm it's IQ is so so). And 55-300 is lots lighter, more compact and faster when it comes to AF and tracking. PLM works wonders.


APS-C was almost always darker then FF lenses and F4 with K-3/3 is plenty bright for action as in most cases you shot it shot telezoom during day or in brightly lit rooms.


K-3 Mk III was miniaturised to the point when Pentax decided to not include tilt-screen. How do you explain this to customer and then ask to use 2kg of a lens cause there is nothing of similar quality in DA range and only long DA* telezoom is 15 years old? Maybe it is only me, but I find this pretty counterintuitive.
04-16-2022, 11:43 PM   #124
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APSC is not just about size and weight. Pentax needs to maintain DA and DFA image circles without too much duplication. The K3iii is a nice and compact APSC camera designed for speed. Nothing wrong to put a DA Ltd lens on it, but the camera can do much more with fast glass, tele glass… first thing I needed for K3iii was the battery pack for * lenses longer than 50/55mm.


Last edited by zapp; 04-17-2022 at 02:28 AM.
04-17-2022, 06:34 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by jersey Quote
But DFA compared do DA* has its issues with IQ. It is more of an equivalent to 55-300 PLM (ok, PLM is longer, but after 200mm it's IQ is so so). And 55-300 is lots lighter, more compact and faster when it comes to AF and tracking. PLM works wonders.


APS-C was almost always darker then FF lenses and F4 with K-3/3 is plenty bright for action as in most cases you shot it shot telezoom during day or in brightly lit rooms.


K-3 Mk III was miniaturised to the point when Pentax decided to not include tilt-screen. How do you explain this to customer and then ask to use 2kg of a lens cause there is nothing of similar quality in DA range and only long DA* telezoom is 15 years old? Maybe it is only me, but I find this pretty counterintuitive.
To me, it is completely intuitive.

I never use LV when photographing a scene with lots of motion.
04-17-2022, 06:39 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
APSC is not just about size and weight. Pentax needs to maintain DA and DFA image circles without too much duplication. The K3iii is a nice and compact APSC camera designed for speed. Nothing wrong to put a DA Ltd lens on it, but the camera can do much more with fast glass, tele glass… first thing I needed for K3iii was the battery pack for * lenses longer than 50/55mm.
I just use higher ISO values.
A value like ISO 12500 is fine on my KP.
{I always support ‘longer’ lenses with my left hand, so I have no need for “balance”}.
04-17-2022, 09:47 AM - 2 Likes   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
To me, it is completely intuitive.

I never use LV when photographing a scene with lots of motion.
I neither but what has LV to do with what I said?

Pentax did all they could to make this camera small and light, up to the point where they gave it only fixed screen. And yet currently only lens on the technical level of this small and compact camera is 2kg heavy FF monster.

Pentax currently does not have a long lens to compliment both size and AF capabilities of K-3 Mk III. In other words there is no pro-level setup for long zoom action shooting for new flagship. K-3 Mk III is flagship without ammo.

04-17-2022, 10:18 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by jersey Quote
K-3 Mk III is flagship without ammo.
It's got ammo, just of a larger caliber than the camera was purportedly designed for.

There's a reason the D500 was the size of a D750 (and actually bigger than the K-1 lol).
04-17-2022, 10:21 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by jersey Quote
I neither but what has LV to do with what I said?

Pentax did all they could to make this camera small and light, up to the point where they gave it only fixed screen. And yet currently only lens on the technical level of this small and compact camera is 2kg heavy FF monster.

Pentax currently does not have a long lens to compliment both size and AF capabilities of K-3 Mk III. In other words there is no pro-level setup for long zoom action shooting for new flagship. K-3 Mk III is flagship without ammo.
So what would you call ammo then?

I just assumed that every upgrade in AF from new flagships made the current AF lenses better.
04-17-2022, 10:21 AM - 1 Like   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
{I always support ‘longer’ lenses with my left hand, so I have no need for “balance”}.
Reh, your heaviest lens is about half the weight of the K-3iii. There's not a strong need for balance with the PLM, I've shot it one-handed routinely. Shooting a heavier tele is a different story - you don't want the center of gravity away from the body.
04-17-2022, 12:56 PM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
It's got ammo, just of a larger caliber than the camera was purportedly designed for.

There's a reason the D500 was the size of a D750 (and actually bigger than the K-1 lol).
Ok, let say it so: it is like modern artillery shooting ww2 ammo


Anyway, I wrote it in some other thread, but I feel like K-3 Mk III opened not new chapter in Pentax history but whole new book. It is sort of a restart for Pentax technology wise and they simply lack lenses that are as sophisticated as this camera and made to compliment it.

I do not think it is bad, and I think that Pentax needs time to design and produce new lens lineup made with new body and it tech in mind. And I can wait, I probably buy 60-250 before first airshow I want to visit. I would not mind if Pentax updated lens roadmap and laid out some plans but then I do not expect this.


But I will never agree that Pentax lineup for APS-C is great or complete. For everything before K-3 Mk III - yes. For K-3 Mk III it is pretty much empty. Only saving grace are Limiteds but I think those will be ok for a long, long time. But then they were never about being modern high-tech lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by zbrueningsen Quote
So what would you call ammo then?

I just assumed that every upgrade in AF from new flagships made the current AF lenses better.
AF in camera works better. But it wont speed up in-lens motors.

What I would call ammo? Hmm, it already has 16-50 PLM. So I would say equivalent mid and long telezooms. With PLM drive and if possible internal focusing. It simply needs modern, well corrected zooms with really, really fast drives and as small and light as possible.

Last edited by jersey; 04-17-2022 at 01:05 PM.
04-17-2022, 01:17 PM - 1 Like   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by jersey Quote
But I will never agree that Pentax lineup for APS-C is great or complete. For everything before K-3 Mk III - yes. For K-3 Mk III it is pretty much empty. Only saving grace are Limiteds but I think those will be ok for a long, long time. But then they were never about being modern high-tech lenses.

What I would call ammo? Hmm, it already has 16-50 PLM. So I would say equivalent mid and long telezooms. With PLM drive and if possible internal focusing. It simply needs modern, well corrected zooms with really, really fast drives and as small and light as possible.
Yeah, agreed. There's no need for many lenses, though - most of the "normal" stuff is already perfectly serviceable in terms of IQ and AF speed.

IMO: 50-135/2.8 plm is important, and maybe a replacement for the 60-250, either similar FL range or in 100-300mm flavour. That's it for zooms - perhaps a cheaper wide angle zoom, something like a 12-20/4 or so. Then for primes there's a point to be made about a good DA* 20ish f/1.4, and a 35/1.4. And... we'd be back to complete set more or less.
04-17-2022, 01:25 PM   #133
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Well, why do you think they redesigned the 16-50 (and son 50-135) as PLM lenses ?

I very much doubt a long tele czn be donne with a PLM motor.
04-17-2022, 01:40 PM   #134
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50-135 is still a rumour, unless I missed something Pentax has not announced anything. And "soon" in Pentax land means in this decade. Maybe :P
04-17-2022, 02:07 PM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
(...)

I very much doubt a long tele can be done with a PLM motor.
It can be with several. Fujifilm and Sony use up to four such motors: either 2x2 (two focusing groups, each one moved by two motors) or 1x3 (one focusing group moved by three motors).
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