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04-08-2022, 04:13 AM - 1 Like   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
The K-70 is what I'd describe as a very good, well-made, consumer-level camera. The K-3III, though, is as well built as any pro camera. I don't think these limited specialist developments turn them into "de luxe" cameras - just specialist versions of what they already are. You pay for that specialising accordingly (or not, if you don't require it) - but the result isn't a better or "de luxe" camera... just a different-featured one.

As long as this doesn't take development effort away from the mainstream product lines, I'm all for it. I do wonder, though...
You're right about that it's the EASY "UPDATE" - Change the sensor - or Add Astro Tracer to another.

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But their logic - to MOVE the Brand ( in marketing sense mostly ) to Luxurious - is frighten me a bit.

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I'm vey happy for fact, that I bought many of the lenses before Sigma leaved the Pentax, and before the Price Skyrocketing - of an old Film Era FF Lenses in ebay and elsewhere.

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Now I have to pay for Luxurios big chunky lenses - far more - then before - only because it's the new ones - and from pentax itself. Don't know.

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Luckily - I have enough of everything now


Last edited by panonski; 04-08-2022 at 07:01 AM.
04-08-2022, 04:14 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Logically, from a user standpoint, I would expect a Pentax K1 Astro and K1 Monochrome derivatives. It looks like these product variants are made from products currently in still production (K3-3, K70), not based on customer side logic. It's not the first time I see this with Pentax.
Maybe the k1III is closer than we know, while a new apsc is not.
04-08-2022, 04:26 AM - 1 Like   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by panonski Quote
You're right about that it's the EASY "UPDATE" - Change the sensor - or Add Astro Tracer to another.

-
But their logic - to MOVE the Brand ( in marketing sense mostly ) to Luxurious - is frighten me a bit.

-
I'm vey happy for fact, that I bought many of the lens before Sigma leave the Pentax, and before the Price Skyrocketing - of an old Film Era FF Lenses in ebay and elsewhere.

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Now I have to pay for Luxurios big chunky lenses - far more - then before - only because it's the new ones - and from pentax itself. Don't know.

-
Luckily - I have enough of everything now
I'm in the same position... I'm well-equipped with Pentax (and compatible) gear at the level I need and want, and very happy with what I paid for it - but Ricoh appears to be moving Pentax up-market, and whilst the latest products are arguably worth the asking price, several recent products are priced higher than I'm comfortable with for my own situation. Much as the K-3III is an awesome camera and I'd love to own one, I simply can't justify that kind of money on a camera for my hobby. That's not a criticism of Ricoh, just a statement of fact based on my own personal tolerances and limits.

But, I might just be convinced to sell off some of my gear for a monochrome K-3III
04-08-2022, 04:31 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
B&W conversion of a colour photo is far inferior to a native image from a dedicated monochrome camera with the same resolution sensor.

Colour filter arrays and associated demosaicing algorithms are a clever solution to capturing colour, but result in rather imperfect image quality due to loss of light in the filters, interpolation errors in demosaicing and resulting artefacts (false colours, moiré, zippering etc.). Choosing different demosaicing algorithms depending on image properties and content can help to some extent, but there are compromises in all of them.

Removing the colour filter array from the sensor significantly reduces light loss (effectively increasing sensitivity) and enables more precise recording of light hitting the sensor. Since demosaicing is no longer required, there are no artefacts to deal with and image quality is improved considerably.

I can't justify the cost of another brand-new camera, but if I could, a dedicated monochrome model would really get my attention. I realise it's not for everyone, but for those who enjoy B&W photography, it's a very attractive option...
"Far inferior" meaning it is possible to notice some differences if you know what you're looking for and are printing or displaying very large, or you've cropped quite a lot. I would guess that in a large majority of cases showing a non-photographer two 20x30" B&W prints of the same scene, one with a monochrome sensor one with an otherwise identical color sensor... they'd struggle to see any differences.

I've taken a number of nice landscapes with the K-3 II, converted them to B&W in post, then had Digital Silver Imaging print at 20x30, and hung them on my living room wall. I almost guarantee having a monochrome sensor would have changed little or nothing about how those photographs turned out and are viewed.

Having said all that, I'm sure there are edge cases and situations where a monochrome sensor is nice. But most photographers would get nearly identical results with color conversion and save themselves a fair amount of money.

---------- Post added 04-08-22 at 07:35 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
But, I might just be convinced to sell off some of my gear for a monochrome K-3III
Thinking about this a bit more... wouldn't that be a strange thing? The K-3 Mark III is definitely geared towards action photography. One of its biggest selling points is near-D500 level autofocus, and Pentax' first usable AF-C with tracking. Along with Pentax' highest frame rate ever, and with great high ISO capabilities for keeping shutter speed high in low light. But then to turn out a B&W version of that? I guess it would be an awesome tool to simulate an alternate universe there you're the world's greatest sports photographer in 1930.

04-08-2022, 04:35 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote

But, I might just be convinced to sell off some of my gear for a monochrome K-3III
I think that thing is a REAL SELLER - and GOOD MARKETING .

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Many online magazines will be interested to TEST IT and REVIEW IT

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pLUS,


mAny photographers would be like "Heey ,It's a real deal for me to showing myself to everybody at the wedding - and sayin "It's only monochrome baby "
04-08-2022, 05:14 AM   #51
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Monochrome only!? But will it be Japan only?
04-08-2022, 05:16 AM - 2 Likes   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
"Far inferior" meaning it is possible to notice some differences if you know what you're looking for and are printing or displaying very large, or you've cropped quite a lot. I would guess that in a large majority of cases showing a non-photographer two 20x30" B&W prints of the same scene, one with a monochrome sensor one with an otherwise identical color sensor... they'd struggle to see any differences.
I don't fundamentally disagree, but the same argument can be applied to higher resolution sensors over lower-res, higher iso / higher dynamic range capability vs lower, higher-end lenses vs consumer glass, etc. - and yet we flock to buy the more-capable, higher-end gear, don't we? For the majority of my photography and output requirements, I could have got by quite adequately with a 10MP K10D / Samsung GX-10, Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 and maybe a couple of primes (I often do, in fact). It didn't stop me buying a 16MP K-5, then a 24MP K-3 and K-3II, the HD DA Limiteds, DA*60-250 and bunch of other decent mid-range glass. That's what we amateur photographers do, isn't it?

QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
I've taken a number of nice landscapes with the K-3 II, converted them to B&W in post, then had Digital Silver Imaging print at 20x30, and hung them on my living room wall.
I don't doubt it - and I'm sure they look excellent.

QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
I almost guarantee having a monochrome sensor would have changed little or nothing about how those photographs turned out and are viewed.
I respect your opinion, but we honestly don't know... You may be right, you may not; but, again, see my comment above. Quantifiable benefit in the intended output medium doesn't drive all of our purchasing decisions. We buy equipment we want or like the idea of, regardless of whether it will result in a better end product.

QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
Having said all that, I'm sure there are edge cases and situations where a monochrome sensor is nice. But most photographers would get nearly identical results with color conversion and save themselves a fair amount
Yup. And most photographers would get sufficient resolution from a 16MP K-5IIs... but it didn't stop folks wanting and buying a 24MP K-3 / K-3II or KP, or a 26MP K-3III. Most amateur photographers don't go into their buying decisions thinking "What's the minimum I can get away with for my use-cases". We probably should, but very often we don't.

QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
Thinking about this a bit more... wouldn't that be a strange thing? The K-3 Mark III is definitely geared towards action photography. One of its biggest selling points is near-D500 level autofocus, and Pentax' first usable AF-C with tracking. Along with Pentax' highest frame rate ever, and with great high ISO capabilities for keeping shutter speed high in low light. But then to turn out a B&W version of that? I guess it would be an awesome tool to simulate an alternate universe there you're the world's greatest sports photographer in 1930.
The K-3III is well-featured for action photography, for sure - but in other respects it's "just" a natural evolution of the K-3 / K-3II, with improved AF, improved image quality and dynamic range and an extended feature set (e.g. non-GPS astro). If you want a current, pro / semi-pro quality APS-C camera with "PENTAX" on the front, you buy the K-3III whether-or-not you're an action photographer. Some time ago I made the decision to stick with APS-C in my Pentax gear, as I prefer the size and weight of the bodies and lenses... so, if I were buying a new K-mount camera today, the logical choice for me - even though I don't shoot much action - is a K-3III.

As for the B&W / 1930s comment, I don't really know how to respond on that. Monochrome imaging is as artistically relevant today as it's always been...


Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-08-2022 at 05:57 AM.
04-08-2022, 05:23 AM - 1 Like   #53
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I would consider monochrome K-3/3 in 2023. I always wanted monochrome camera but Leica is a bit out of my interest budget wise (read - it is too expensive for a toy). Still I would prefer monochrome GR I think.
04-08-2022, 05:56 AM - 1 Like   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
By the way, two images of the Pentax K-3 Mark III Monochrome with its so-called 'monochrome design'.


l wonder if they go all-in on B/W and make the display on the rear monochome too?
04-08-2022, 06:00 AM - 2 Likes   #55
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If K33 and GR monochrome adopt the same monochrome CMOS, the cost can be diluted.
04-08-2022, 06:00 AM - 1 Like   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
l wonder if they go all-in on B/W and make the display on the rear monochome too?
There's going to be a rear display?!? Well, that's ruined it completely... Maybe I'll just wait for the 35mm film version. I've a freezer drawer half full with B&W film (so 1930s, I know)

Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-08-2022 at 06:33 AM.
04-08-2022, 06:05 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I don't fundamentally disagree, but the same argument can be applied to higher resolution sensors over lower-res, higher iso / higher dynamic range capability vs lower, higher-end lenses vs consumer glass, etc. - and yet we flock to buy the more-capable, higher-end gear, don't we? For the majority of my photography and output requirements, I could have got by quite adequately with a 10MP K10D / Samsung GX-10, Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 and maybe a couple of primes (I often do, in fact). It didn't stop me buying a 16MP K-5, then a 24MP K-3 and K-3II, the HD DA Limiteds, DA*60-250 and bunch of other decent mid-range glass. That's what we amateur photographers do, isn't it?

I don't doubt it - and I'm sure they look excellent.

I respect your opinion, but we honestly don't know... You may be right, you may not; but, again, see my comment above. Quantifiable benefit in the intended output medium doesn't drive all of our purchasing decisions. We buy equipment we want or like the idea of, regardless of whether it will result in a better end product.

Yup. And most photographers would get sufficient resolution from a 16MP K-5IIs... but it didn't stop folks wanting and buying a 24MP K-3 / K-3II or KP, or a 26MP K-3III. Most amateur photographers don't go into their buying decisions thinking "What's the minimum I can get away with for my use-cases". We probably should, but very often we don't.

The K-3III is well-featured for action photography, for sure - but in other respects it's "just" a natural evolution of the K-3 / K-3II, with improved AF, improved image quality and dynamic range and an extended feature set (e.g. non-GPS astro). If you want a current, pro / semi-pro quality APS-C camera with "PENTAX" on the front, you buy the K-3III whether-or-not you're an action photographer. Some time ago I made the decision to stick with APS-C in my Pentax gear, as I prefer the size and weight of the bodies and lenses... so, if I were buying a new K-mount camera today, the logical choice for me - even though I don't shoot much action - is a K-3III.

As for the B&W / 1930s comment, I don't really know how to respond on that. Monochrome imaging is as artistically relevant today as it's always been...
Yep, most of what we spend a lot of money on is for somewhat better results in some cases. But we still do it.

The 1930s comment was a little tongue-in-cheek, but I do wonder about making a monochrome version of an action-oriented camera. I suppose for Pentax there aren't many other options. The K-3 Mark III is the only camera still in production that has been released in, what, five years? I think it makes a bit more sense to have a monochrome K-1, but you could argue that series is getting a little long in the tooth.
04-08-2022, 06:13 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
The 1930s comment was a little tongue-in-cheek, but I do wonder about making a monochrome version of an action-oriented camera. I suppose for Pentax there aren't many other options. The K-3 Mark III is the only camera still in production that has been released in, what, five years? I think it makes a bit more sense to have a monochrome K-1, but you could argue that series is getting a little long in the tooth.
Again, I don't consider the K-3III to be action-oriented. Action-capable, yes - but it's no less capable as a general-use APS-C camera; indeed, it is the "flagship" APS-C body, filling a position in the product line-up that was vacated by the less-action-capable K-3II.

I think you're probably right that Ricoh chose the K-3III for this monochrome exercise because it's the most recent, current-production camera in the line-up, and development on the K-3III platform is most likely relevant and easily transferable to the K-1III (if that's what it will be called). If the K-1III had already been released, I'm pretty sure a monochrome version of that would have been offered instead of - or possibly in addition to - the K-3III version...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-09-2022 at 05:51 AM.
04-08-2022, 06:20 AM - 4 Likes   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
(...) I do wonder about making a monochrome version of an action-oriented camera. I suppose for Pentax there aren't many other options. The K-3 Mark III is the only camera still in production that has been released in, what, five years? I think it makes a bit more sense to have a monochrome K-1, but you could argue that series is getting a little long in the tooth.
There might be another reason. IMX571, the sensor in Pentax K-3 Mark III, is available off-the-shelf in both RGB and monochrome versions. The sensor in K-1 Mark II is not. For a couple of hundred units, the mark-up in comparison to the standard camera would be much more than 25% if the sensor came from a special batch.
04-08-2022, 06:41 AM - 1 Like   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
K-3 Mark III model dedicated to black and white photography

○ Features
Special CMOS image sensor without colour filter
Better image quality than that of the standard model in monochrome mode, with more natural resolution and noise.
Black and white design
○ Price: ¥350,000 (tax included)

Release date: 2023 or later
I am very involved with monochrome (see my website link) and can be quite excited about this camera.

HOWEVER, a release date of "2023 or later" means that in Pentax-time we can begin to look for this to be available in, say, Spring of 2026. For a super-annuated guy who doesn't even buy green bananas, that is a bit far in the future.
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