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06-22-2022, 06:20 AM - 2 Likes   #1
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... even beginners and women ...

From an "official" Pentax posting :-


"PENTAX Walk in Asakusa" will be held this Saturday
Spaces available now due to cancellations.
Deadline is tomorrow 6/23 (Wednesday) at 1:00 pm

It's a relaxed workshop using the entry model PENTAX K-70, so even beginners or women, feel free to participate.


see PENTAX Walk in Asakusa June 25 (Sat) | PENTAX official for the original!


I wonder if this is a mis-interpretation or does it actually reflect different attitudes to those we have come to expect in the "west"


06-22-2022, 06:52 AM - 2 Likes   #2
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I am not the kind of person which is usually offended by words, and I try to give the benefit of the doubt or at least assume their good faith because communication is never straightforward when cultural and linguistic barriers are in place.
But yes, sexism in few different forms is a significant "feature" of Japanese traditional culture and is a real generational problem. And this promotional material seems to inadvertently reinforce that kind of narrative.
It really leaves a bad taste to read such messages :/.
06-22-2022, 06:59 AM - 7 Likes   #3
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"even... women" Pentax, yes.

06-22-2022, 07:41 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by kypfer Quote
From an "official" Pentax posting :-


"PENTAX Walk in Asakusa" will be held this Saturday
Spaces available now due to cancellations.
Deadline is tomorrow 6/23 (Wednesday) at 1:00 pm

It's a relaxed workshop using the entry model PENTAX K-70, so even beginners or women, feel free to participate.


see PENTAX Walk in Asakusa June 25 (Sat) | PENTAX official for the original!


I wonder if this is a mis-interpretation or does it actually reflect different attitudes to those we have come to expect in the "west"

Ouch !

06-22-2022, 07:46 AM - 11 Likes   #5
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Well, there's much more of an acceptance that certain products and events are aimed at men or women in Japan, so I think what Pentax is trying to say is that this event is for everyone, not just experienced users or male users. I can understand that Pentax would like to be inclusive to more kinds of users, because their events tend to be dominated by experienced male users. I imagine that they looked at the people who've signed up nd realized that they are only attracting men.

It looks clumsy in that translation, but it is auto-translation after all. If you put it through deepl (a better translator than Google), it doesn't include the word "even". So it's debatable which is the better translation.

Anyway, I showed the Japanese to my wife and asked if she thought it was condescending. She saw no problem with it.

Note also that Ricoh/Pentax does feature female pro photographers at their events on a regular basis in Japan. It's a minority, but more often than they used to and comparable with other companies.
06-22-2022, 08:09 AM - 1 Like   #6
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"I think what Pentax is trying to say is that this event is for everyone, not just experienced users or male users."

No, what they are trying to say is that women do not have the sense to use a camera. Statements like this, sour all my Pentax gear for me.
06-22-2022, 08:12 AM - 1 Like   #7
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The original wording can be read as "even" (...でも安心して), but this is no problem in Japan - people are pretty happy with their own gender-specific safespace, so to say. If it was an Ikebana event, you would read "...even men...".
It's also a matter of language - they use honorific language which sometimes requires phrases like that.

06-22-2022, 08:19 AM - 1 Like   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
Well, there's much more of an acceptance that certain products and events are aimed at men or women in Japan, so I think what Pentax is trying to say is that this event is for everyone, not just experienced users or male users. I can understand that Pentax would like to be inclusive to more kinds of users, because their events tend to be dominated by experienced male users. I imagine that they looked at the people who've signed up nd realized that they are only attracting men.

It looks clumsy in that translation, but it is auto-translation after all. If you put it through deepl (a better translator than Google), it doesn't include the word "even". So it's debatable which is the better translation.

Anyway, I showed the Japanese to my wife and asked if she thought it was condescending. She saw no problem with it.

Note also that Ricoh/Pentax does feature female pro photographers at their events on a regular basis in Japan. It's a minority, but more often than they used to and comparable with other companies.
It still seems to imply that a woman wouldn't be able to cope with a more advanced camera. It might have been wiser to leave it at beginners.

06-22-2022, 08:27 AM - 3 Likes   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by csa Quote
"I think what Pentax is trying to say is that this event is for everyone, not just experienced users or male users."

No, what they are trying to say is that women do not have the sense to use a camera. Statements like this, sour all my Pentax gear for me.
Lost in translation and cultural differences.

There have been numerous faux pas made in marketing over the years and will continue to be. Adding in auto translations just adds to the issue.
06-22-2022, 08:28 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by slartibartfast01 Quote
It still seems to imply that a woman wouldn't be able to cope with a more advanced camera. It might have been wiser to leave it at beginners.
The important implication is that they view the K70 as an entry level camera;
more than one of our discussions has revolved around the intended role of the K-70.

Last edited by reh321; 06-22-2022 at 09:37 AM.
06-22-2022, 09:00 AM - 3 Likes   #11
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Speaking as someone who speaks foreign languages (not Japanese) please don't rely on Google Translate for truly accurate representations. As good as that tech has become, it's still not good enough to relay all of the cultural nuances involved in language.


If I put up a flyer saying 'please come hiking with us' and include the line 'you can even bring your children', that is not an anti child statement. It purely conveys that it will be family friendly and what difficulty level one could expect. Now throw in a few thousand years of cultural nuances into how that is stated and which language is being used and you actually have something linguistically complex.


I have a bit more to say, but I will refrain.
06-22-2022, 09:03 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
Well, there's much more of an acceptance that certain products and events are aimed at men or women in Japan, so I think what Pentax is trying to say is that this event is for everyone, not just experienced users or male users.
Anyway, I showed the Japanese to my wife and asked if she thought it was condescending. She saw no problem with it.

Excellent
I'll put it down to (another) failure on the part of the translation "ai"
06-22-2022, 09:03 AM - 2 Likes   #13
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Maybe this link : Troubleshooting and Beginner Help - PentaxForums.com should be amended to include women as well ?

(Only joking, tongue firmly in cheek )
06-22-2022, 09:16 AM - 2 Likes   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
Speaking as someone who speaks foreign languages (not Japanese) please don't rely on Google Translate for truly accurate representations. As good as that tech has become, it's still not good enough to relay all of the cultural nuances involved in language.
Case in point, check out www.translationparty.com You can type out a phrase in English and it'll automatically translate between English and Japanese over and over until the translations reach parity. Sometimes the translations are still relatively understandable. Sometimes they are... Interesting. A good starting phrase is the classic line from Monty Python and the Holy Grail:

"What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?"
06-22-2022, 09:17 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by kypfer Quote
even beginners or women
yikes...
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