[biz-engineer]

There's an old adage which states that you if you upset 1 customer you stand to lose 100.

Yes and no. Yes , reputation is important, product reliability is contributing to reputation, you are right. And No you don't want necessarily want all and any customer because some customers (segments) are draining your money, no business wants that. But there are way to make sure you don't get lousy customers without offending them, some companies are very good at weeding out the wrong customers and it shows both in their profits and reputation.


Pentax marketing approach applied for many years self selected the type of customers who bought Pentax and form the Pentax user base of today. For many years, Pentax presented itself as a value brand that saves money to its customer by offering products with more features that competitors, slightly lower prices, and product tech was usually late (2016 for the first full frame) , and with some quality issues (SDM) not dealt with properly and weak after sales service. In order to save money (due to value prices), Pentax cut on marketing costs, which long term is the wrong thing to do. Customers who were professionals or who had big budgets just moved on with other brands, and a lot of customers who stayed with Pentax were either the low budget customers or the customers who preferred to avoid the cost of switching brand over reliability issues. The other brands charge more for a camera (between $3000 and $6000 for a FF camera), and with the extra profit they spend more on R&D, spend more on marketing and spend more on after sales services (r&d, marketing and service are included in the price of cameras and lenses, it's not miraculous), and these brands do collect premium customers, the ones who spend big on camera equipment. When Ricoh released the premium high performance K3 III DSLR, the price was a huge deal, because raising your prices over a value for money customer base is a bit of a contradictory move, you have to overcome 20 years of customers used to get stuff cheaper than with other brands.

Pentax made it clear that they see a clear link between them and us, so p'ing off any of us directly or indirectly is potentially losing sales.

There is a way to handle customer issues, ignoring customer problems is not necessarily a good way, an attitude of problem solving is better. Having the resources to improve camera / lens reliability and dealing effectively with after sales services starts with charging more money, and charging more money starts with investing more in R&D and marketing. It's a self virtuous loop or vicious loop depending on how investors and business managers decide to make the loop work for them.

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Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-06-2022 at 03:26 AM.

[StigVidar]

how much money did you spend on brand new pentax equipment in the last 2 years?

k-3 iii
da*16-50/2.8 plm
da*11-18/2.8

[biz-engineer]

Pentax is going to try to be Leica-lite.

That's the way to go in situation of low volume. Although I wonder how Pentaxians will react when Ricoh will charge $5000 for a lens. Our reaction to $2000 for the K3 III was quite strong, I can hardly see who among us will buy a Pentax K1 mk III at $6000 even if it's got a fantastic feature set, performance, build quality and finish. Some Pentaxians are still asking for sub $1000 24Mpixels full frame...thinking about using the M lenses of the good old film days when your SLR had a split screen bright VF over 8Mpixels grainy film rolls.

[Kunzite]

That's the way to go in situation of low volume. Although I wonder how Pentaxians will react when Ricoh will charge $5000 for a lens.

Why are you assuming they would match Leica prices?

[aaacb]

Who exactly is Ricoh listening to for customer feedback?

To give a positive example, the GR IIIx. It was discussed and requested a lot online before launch. It's true, for the same line they didn't include a flash despite quite a few complaining that it was removed after version II. Can't please everyone...

In terms of community, the GR brand also shows what they mean by this engagement, they have a solid presence online with ambassadors that promote it without pushing it.

GR is working well for Ricoh, they sold a lot of GR III's and it's a well recognized brand in its niche.

[gatorguy]

A lot! K3iii and DFA 21 Limited especially.

What would I buy in future, if released? A significantly upgraded K1iii; possibly a new 645, especially if it rose to the challenges posed by Fuji; a super-tele fast prime ($$$); a FF 60-300 zoom; ... probably quite a lot. But will they offer any of these? The conversation needs to go both ways. Ricoh, be honest and open with your customers. What is in store for us if we stick with you?

I've probably bought too much if I were to ask my wife. I won't.
Off the top of my head in the past couple of years I've picked up the DFA*85, DFA*50, HD1.4TC and K3III all new. Several (!) used lenses too which of course Pentax already realized the profit from but still solidifies my commitment to the Pentax brand.

EDIT: Oh, and the HD DA16-50. Also managed a Canon to Pentax convert a few weeks ago who now shoots a brand new K3III w/battery grip, extra battery, and with new Pentax 50-135, HD DA16-50, and FA77 lenses to go with it.

[gatorguy]

Why are you assuming they would match Leica prices?

Windmill...

[Rondec]

Why are you assuming they would match Leica prices?

They won't.

There is a middle ground where Pentax prices top end lenses close to 2000 dollars (many of their lenses are close already), but still has plenty of older lenses in their catalog for a lot less. Prices on camera bodies will creep up as well, but certainly isn't going to hit Leica levels.

Made to order gear will be priced higher yet.

Certainly no 5000 dollar lenses are likely unless Pentax comes out with a 400mm f2.8.

[reh321]

"I would like to pursue PENTAX cameras with people who share my belief in the pursuit of SLRs when it comes to photography, not convenience or video functions." Yeah, I know, could be a bad translation. LOL, then why bother having video functions in the camera at all? And, by convenience, does he mean things like flippy screens on the back of the cameras? Is that the reason for the boneheaded decision to not have a flippy screen on the K-3III? Oy... Who exactly is Ricoh listening to for customer feedback?

It is not a boneheaded decision.
Why do people continue to expect to photograph mushrooms with a camera designed to photograph action??
Mushrooms don’t move!
The K-3 series has never had a moveable LCD.

[Serkevan]

Why are you assuming they would match Leica prices?

Nah, 5k isn't Leica prices. As long as it's 4 digits it's still sort of in the low end

---------- Post added 07-06-22 at 05:31 AM ----------

The K-3 series has never had a moveable LCD.

It also never had a truly high-end AF system, or a very fast frame rate, or a third dial.
Or a touch screen.

---------- Post added 07-06-22 at 05:35 AM ----------

Certainly no 5000 dollar lenses are likely unless Pentax comes out with a 400mm f2.8.

For 5k, at 400mm, you aren't getting anything faster than f/4 these days .

I agree that we'll see an increase in average prices, but it's probably not gonna be anywhere near Leica. If I were a betting man, I'd think the new price categories will be, roughly, DFA at ~1000-1500, Limiteds at 1500-2000 and Star glass at 2-3K (bazooka telephotos excepted, naturally).

I doubt we'll see much full frame, sub-1000€ glass again, beyond reissues of older optics or a revamp of the entry-level DFA 28-105 (which 100% does not need it).

[bdery]

Second, again, keeping the same lens mount is great for old time customers who already have lenses, since they can get a tech upgrade on the cameras without spending money on buying new lenses. Now, if customers don't need to buy new lenses, that's not helping to generate revenues for Pentax in a shrinking ILC market. OTOH, mirrorless change of lens mount trigger sales of new lenses along with the sales of new camera models, which makes it easier to run a camera business.

Correct. Fuji (who were in more dire straits than Pentax)made that bid and it served them well, I would say. They created a new brand identity (since theirs was all but dead, contrary to Pentax) and increased their revenue.

Third, closing the door to mirrorless is also closing the door to customers who may want to use their Pentax glass on a mirrorless camera.

Right. If you want to do this now, you have to use a third-party adapter, one of those being AF (although limited) the others being mechanical.

[EssJayEff]

How much money did you spend on brand new Pentax equipment in the last 2 years?

I find myself [idiom warning] "between a rock and a hard place" when assessing that perspective. My answer to your question is, "Nothing," because Pentax has not instilled confidence of their viability within me because they have offered me nothing during that time period. I am not interested in APS-C; my interest are in full frame and medium format. I am reluctant to enter the latter, even buying used, because I have seen no advancement for the 645Z. I would have spent money on a new K-1 III if it wasn't incremental as my K-1 works just fine (except for that lousy firmware update mistake I made back in December that has eliminated the "off" part of the camera's on/off function).

From the list below of new cameras offered in the past two-and-a-half years, you can see what company has more offerings and thus which company appears to be the most viable:

2022
Fujifilm X-H2S (APS-C)

2021
Fujifilm GFX 50S II (Medium format)
Fujifilm GFX 100S (Medium format)
Fujifilm X-T30 II (APS-C)
Fujifilm X-E4 (APS-C)

Ricoh GR IIIx (APS-C)
Pentax K-3 Mark III (APS-C)

2020
Fujifilm X-S10 (APS-C sensor)
Fujifilm X-T4 (APS-C sensor)
Fujifilm X100V (APS-C sensor)
Fujifilm X-T200 (APS-C sensor)

[reh321]

It also never had a truly high-end AF system, or a very fast frame rate, or a third dial.
Or a touch screen.

It all depends on how you measure these things.
People used to complain about the battery capacity, frame rate, etc about the KP - which were below the K-3 - until they complained about the lack of a flippy” - which the KP does have; Pentaxians always need something to complain about.
Why want a “flippy” when you have that wonderful prism, which fits into the K-3 much better.

[AfterPentax Mark II]

No, there is no "us".

You are completely wrong there: Of course there is "us"! Sometimes us means: Ricoh/Pentax fanbase, sometimes means "our customers". You are a "Pentaxian" yourselves. Us is the usual personal pronoun that we use as we are a fan of: a soccer club, a rockband, a singer, a tennisplayer and so on. As a fan we always call ourselves "us". It means that we identify ourselves with, in this case, the Pentax branded camera that we use. Most people that participate in this forum are proud of their old and new gear. So, yes, there is certainly an "us".

[Serkevan]

Why want a “flippy” when you have that wonderful prism, which fits into the K-3 much better.

The K-1 has a prism that is every bit as wonderful as that on the K-33.

Guess who *still* uses the flippy screen every day he takes the camera.

My point is that "it didn't have [feature] before" is a terrible argument, particularly when it has minimal downsides, to the point that basically every other option has said feature (because technology marches on). You yourself left Pentax for more than a decade because they didn't add a feature that you wanted added (silent focusing motors). By your own logic, why should they have added DC/PLM lenses - they didn't have them before.