[reh321]

manual wind - the thing that annoyed me in film time...

---------- Post added 03-18-23 at 02:31 AM ----------



depends on camera - anyway - to put film and press button is much better

New film camera could be interesting, let it be...But to launch such camera in current economical situation is a bit freaky...IMO

My sixth sense hints me that camera is not for all markets. Non-Japanese customers will buy under special order.

We shall see.

Meanwhile - back to the subject of film motion - advancing film was just part of the process. Perhaps some enjoyed while others endured it. Almost everyone who used film {like my Dad in the Yellowstone area in 1962 with a Mitsubishi rangefinder camera}, and I {somewhere in Colorado in 1971 with a Yashica rangefinder camera} has reached around shot “28” on a 24 exposure roll or shot “40” on a 36 exposure roll - and thereafter has ‘tightened’ the roll while in the camera and watched the rewind crank for motion while advancing the film. It’s just part of the experience.

[RGlasel]

Pentax would do well with making a modest camera system with a vintage camera design aesthetic, they could make a small fortune on making similar accessories.

In a very real sense, the small crew at Pentax is already immersed in this mindspace. Today, DSLRs are one step into vintage territory and the various J Limited projects and knick-knacks show a keen sense of customizing accessories where the aesthetic is more important than the technology.

The manual vs. power winder is a small aspect of the whole shooting film experience, but is important in determining how to design a film camera for people weaned on digital photography. Speaking from experience, a power winder can make film photography much more expensive; when there wasn't a digital option and you needed to shoot in continuous mode, the power winder was an essential tool, otherwise, it led to wasted exposures that couldn't be checked until the entire roll was developed. If you felt extravagant and decided to waste a couple of rolls in the hope of getting a couple of serendipitous gems, well you knew what your pleasure was going to cost and we tend to get more value from our spending when we can plan for the expense. Also, a manual winder requires an extra level of preparation for taking a photograph; you can't press the shutter at exactly the right time unless you have already advanced the film. If you are using a fully automatic point and shoot film camera, there is as little preparation required as shooting with your phone camera and none of the instant gratification that you get with digital photography. Not a good experience, especially if you can only compare it to digital photography.

If Ricoh Imaging is going to sell new film cameras to people who have no experience of shooting film, manual film advance makes lots of sense. There is no point in trying to emulate digital photography, it is better to introduce customers to the thoughtful, preplanned and patient kind of photography offered by film, by starting with the film loading and film advance steps. I find it encouraging to see that Ricoh Imaging seems to "get" what is truly special about shooting film and understands what technical factors determine that. The Pentax Film Project has the potential to be a gateway into a new market that will eventually end up looking to digital Pentax and Ricoh products in order to get more of those "special" photographic experiences.

[kwb]

Short series PENTAX Film Project Club House Diary vol. 1 Guest: Keisuke Nagoshi x Yasushi Nishimura ?Prism Lab KICHIJOJI? | BARFOUT!

[JoelA]

A big thanks to JPT for these contributions!!!

[builttospill]

I disagree that "manual winding is hard work" ... it was simple and effortless on my Spotmatic.

I am with you Julie.

They aren't speaking from the end-user's view, but instead the designer's point. This is great news for us. It means they aren't cutting corners and Pentax is doing this right, even when it's more challenging, all for a proper experience when using this camera. I believe he is saying it's much harder work to design a manual advance winder, for example getting the spacing, motion, and the feel just right when using it. It would be much easier to put a motor in the camera, but it wouldn't provide the same experience.

[OrchidJulie]

They aren't speaking from the end-user's view, but instead the designer's point. This is great news for us. It means they aren't cutting corners and Pentax is doing this right, even when it's more challenging, all for a proper experience when using this camera. I believe he is saying it's much harder work to design a manual advance winder, for example getting the spacing, motion, and the feel just right when using it. It would be much easier to put a motor in the camera, but it wouldn't provide the same experience.

You may be right -- I hope so! I hadn't looked at it from that perspective. That film-advance lever was definitely part of "the experience", and something I could reliably do with my right thumb. As a lefty, that was important!

[kwb]

I disagree that "manual winding is hard work" ...

They aren't speaking from the end-user's view, but instead the designer's point.

You may be right -- I hope so!

From their English article:

Suzuki: Developing a manual winding camera is really hard work, and it is sometimes easier to make a camera with a motor and automatic winding, but the act of winding a camera manually is a special act that is unique to film. And that is something we want young people to experience as well.

[Digitalis]

The big thing is really the feel of the camera.

A good point I thoroughly agree with, in my mind this aspect of the camera will be essential. The Nikon Z9 and Fuji GFX cameras feel less robust compared to my Pentax DSLR cameras. Pentax will want to use solid metals which certainly elevate the cost of manufacturing but also enhance the longevity and reliability of the product.

[reh321]

Pentax will want to use solid metals which certainly elevate the cost of manufacturing but also enhance the longevity and reliability of the product.

I’m not sure I agree with respect to that first camera. They will want to balance the weight- advantages of plastic vs the durability qualities of metal for that carry-around camera. Later cameras - such good SLR 35mm and medium format - would be different.

[nerky774]

This is a really interesting project and hopefully everything will go well for them. A new K mount film SLR will be more than welcome and if they ever reintroduce a 6x7 I'll buy it in a heartbeat

[borisII]

From their English article:

Suzuki: Developing a manual winding camera is really hard work, and it is sometimes easier to make a camera with a motor and automatic winding, but the act of winding a camera manually is a special act that is unique to film. And that is something we want young people to experience as well.

It's very special and private opinion of one man. Not the right way for progress.
It's not special and unique act, but discomfort.

I see сrowd manipulation in such marketing declaration. They decided to make manual winding and trying to impose your decision on the buyer.
Produce 2 cameras - with and without

[pschlute]

Produce 2 cameras - with and without

No. Produce one camera, and a power winder accessory, just like the old days.

[TwoUptons]

No. Produce one camera, and a power winder accessory, just like the old days.

I think these days that's a bad plan...

When power winders were new and novel, batteries were terrible and the bits to do the work were large and heavy.
Look at the original winders for cameras like the Nikon F, Pentax KX, or the Spotmatic Motor... big, heavy, and not particularly fast...
That hasn't been the case in decades (look at the *ist, tiny with a motor), so there is no mechanical advantage really to having the user wind their own film.

If it is just a matter of getting the film wound, a fully motorized solution is easier to design and build.

A manual winding solution is more complicated, and one that combines the two even more so.
What was the last camera Pentax introduced that would take a separate motor drive? P5/P50 in 1986?

I also think the main goal of the early motor drives, getting high fps for professionals who needed it, will not be part of this project.
If you want high fps, buy a K3iii...

So the only reason to do manual winding is either to do a really cheap compact with a super-simple film transport or to, as the article suggest, let the new film shooters feel what it is like to move your own film. There is a tactile difference there, and one that seems completely in line with Pentax' approach to photography lately.

-Eric

[OrchidJulie]

From their English article:

Suzuki: Developing a manual winding camera is really hard work, and it is sometimes easier to make a camera with a motor and automatic winding, but the act of winding a camera manually is a special act that is unique to film. And that is something we want young people to experience as well.

Thanks for that clarification!

[reh321]

I think these days that's a bad plan...

When power winders were new and novel, batteries were terrible and the bits to do the work were large and heavy.
Look at the original winders for cameras like the Nikon F, Pentax KX, or the Spotmatic Motor... big, heavy, and not particularly fast...
That hasn't been the case in decades (look at the *ist, tiny with a motor), so there is no mechanical advantage really to having the user wind their own film.

If it is just a matter of getting the film wound, a fully motorized solution is easier to design and build.

A manual winding solution is more complicated, and one that combines the two even more so.
What was the last camera Pentax introduced that would take a separate motor drive? P5/P50 in 1986?

I also think the main goal of the early motor drives, getting high fps for professionals who needed it, will not be part of this project. My life has never been that hurried. ‘Take some time and smell the flowers.’
If you want high fps, buy a K3iii...

So the only reason to do manual winding is either to do a really cheap compact with a super-simple film transport or to, as the article suggest, let the new film shooters feel what it is like to move your own film. There is a tactile difference there, and one that seems completely in line with Pentax' approach to photography lately.

-Eric

or 3. Users may simply not want one. As the bottom of my “Super Program” shows



it was built to have one - but in the forty years since I purchased it, I never purchased a winder. Why not? A lot of the reason has been that I never had one until later on, when one was built in to the Canon EOS “Elan”.which replaced the “Super Program”. Even today, when every camera seems to have a burst mode, I never think of using it when it might be helpful, but sometimes use it by accident when I have no reason to take a burst. I guess it is ‘no big deal’ now, but back then I would have wasted film that had actual value and I might have had an actual use for. Besides, there is no reason for not taking a moment for ‘cocking’ before ‘firing’.