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01-01-2009, 05:58 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by wallyb Quote
And, if AF speed is REALLY that important to you, it's because you're either a sports photographer or a professional gainfully employed nature/sports/event photographer, in which case price doesn't matter and you can just waste gobs of money on Canon FF bodies and L-glass xD
Hmmm... actually the need for fast AF can also come from the other end of the spectrum...

I am a lowish amateur but the need for faster and more accurate AF and AF tracking emerged when ... I had my firstborn!

Yes, family photography can be quite challenging!!

Low light, randomly moving targets, those firsts moments you don't want to miss and if you want quality pictures, you better learn how to properly use flash and AF-C!

Yesterday, I was photographing my 5 years old doing his first rounds at ice-skating in relatively dim light and I was really thankful for AF-C and USM.... I can still remember the frustration last year when I tried to get some sequences of the same critter learning roller-blading with the K10: almost not one in-focus shot!

It's not like you can't get good shots in these conditions using manual focusing if you're fast enough and have good eyesight but... it's just so much easier when AF/AF-C works!

01-01-2009, 06:44 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by wallyb Quote
Wow, a couple people are being WAY too sensitive about something factual (looking at you, Falcons). They should also tone down the personal insults, it just makes you look ignorant.

I came to the Pentax camp after being in the Minolta/Sony one for a while -- it was my first experience with a DSLR, actually. As someone who knows quite a bit about both now, I can state what should be obvious to most people -- both camera systems have their strong and weak points. The reason why I use Pentax primarily now is because I like Pentax's strong points more than I like Sony's, on average.

Yes, all Sony DSLRs, especially the A700 (which is markedly faster than all others) have faster continuous AF speed than even Pentax's best offering. Yes, the A700 has considerably better ISO noise levels than even the K20D, or even the A900 for that matter. However, the A700 is currently the "bread and butter" of the Sony camp. All of their other cameras are either poorly designed (a digital teleconverter button? WTF?) both with menus and buttons/dials, or in the case of the one comfortable Alpha (A100), have horrible, HORRIBLE noise problems (nighttime photos are absolutely useless after ISO 400).

Sony's cameras are also considerably more expensive than Pentax's when comparing the same featureset (15-30% more), though the used lens market is comparable to that with old pentax glass. The biggest feature that brought me to Pentax, however, was how easy it was to use old MF lenses, either K-mount of M42. The best M42 adapter for sony systems is still crap compared to the built-in compatibility of Pentax. And again, this is a strong selling point for me -- there are so many great lenses available in M42-mount that I actually own very few AF lenses for either system, yet still have every possible situation handled.

To summarize, everyone who is getting bent out of shape because someone else is simply pointing out the factual things that Sony (or other companies) are better at than Pentax is just insecure about their purchase. There are many things that Pentax does better, and to me (and I assume almost everyone else here), they're the things that are more important to us. As a corollary, since I use so much manual glass (and since it's basically expected of you if you want cheap lenses in the Pentax system), the AF speed isn't really important to me. And, if AF speed is REALLY that important to you, it's because you're either a sports photographer or a professional gainfully employed nature/sports/event photographer, in which case price doesn't matter and you can just waste gobs of money on Canon FF bodies and L-glass xD

Hey I'm not being sensitive about something Factual - I know full well that the current Pentax system isn't on par with the competition as I am sure Pentax themselves are quite aware of it. I chose Pentax because it was Cheaper and a far better camera than the canon 350D simple as that -
if I was going to make a living from a Camera taking portraits or weddings - I would go Pentax K20D as it is the best bang for buck camera out there that would provide the greatest return on investment.

If I got a gig photographing sports it would be Canon 1ds Mk111 - without a doubt.

As I stated before, if anyone is shocked or surprised at this revelation on Pentax AF you have spent the last few years with your head in the sand - for some of us though the AF is just fine - perhaps some of you on here will have to start accepting that I am Pentax's Target Market and you aren't.

What does get my goat is little trolls like Supreme Mofo and his ilk who haven't contributed on the site for 5 months (with the last contribution being a whine on AF as well) coming on just to stir up trouble - I have learnt to usually ignore them but every now and again i can't help myself - I like to give a bit back at them.
What also gets on my Goat is that it is acceptable to come on this forum and point out Pentax short comings etc but heaven forbid if you dare say you like your camera you are derided as some sort of weirdo fanboy.
01-01-2009, 06:53 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by SupremeMoFo Quote
Oooh cutting coming from someone who has nothing better to do than introduce pointless personal insults on photography forum! Really, I'm hurt. The part about the cars was hilarious though, thanks for that (make me laugh more - what do you drive?). Cut it out and stop servicing your own ego.
Oh dear no girlfriend huh, ah well keep trying - perhaps if you spent less time trolling you might actually score.

Since you are interested in what I drive - I drive one of the best cars in the whole world " A Fully Maintained Company Car" they are absolutely awesome I recommend them to everyone.
01-01-2009, 09:40 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Maxington Quote
A camera with 3 focus points has better predictive AF? Where'd you get that from?

Because all the AF points in the world doesn't mean the camera is any good at predicting what it needs to do ... jesus my K100D has 11 points and it's absolutely USELESS in AFC mode.

Pick up a D40 and it just blows you away in terms of refinement of it's AF system, maybe comparing it to a 20D is a bit harsh but the D80 leaves it for dead.

01-01-2009, 09:43 AM   #50
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I did. It didn't.
01-01-2009, 10:17 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by SupremeMoFo Quote
Thing is, I've gotten to the point where the K10D's focusing attempts seem absolutely feeble. With a 16-45 at wide angles, most of the time, it can't even resolve focus and keeps trying to push the lens past infinity, so I have to twist the focus way back the other way before it even manages to figure out how to get the horizon in focus.

I've tried a K20D with my Sigma 70-200, it's a little better at tracking but still slow and none too accurate.

Now... I've had a play with Sony's A700, and that does a stunningly good job WITHOUT the need for sonic-drive focusing in terms of both speed and accuracy.

So - will the K30D actually have any improvement in AF performance?
Your K10D need focus adjustment. Send it to Pentax or, if you are still using firmware 1.1 do focusing adjustment yourself. There are a few threads how to do it here, on pentaxforums.com. I had the same issue with my K10D. Couldn't focus @16 mm with 16-45 F4 at all, I fixed this by adjusting focusing via debug menu.
01-01-2009, 11:56 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
Your K10D need focus adjustment. Send it to Pentax or, if you are still using firmware 1.1 do focusing adjustment yourself. There are a few threads how to do it here, on pentaxforums.com. I had the same issue with my K10D. Couldn't focus @16 mm with 16-45 F4 at all, I fixed this by adjusting focusing via debug menu.
But how do I callibrate a camera that gives me 60-70% accurately focused pictures and 30-40% not so accurately focused ones?

This was the problem I had with my K10: no straight BF or FF that I could compensate for, just inconsistent AF leading to some excellent results... or not!
01-01-2009, 12:39 PM   #53
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Exactly...

QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
Who knows??? Maybe it will, maybe it wont.

Why don't you just buy the Sony set up? - an Alpha 700 with a 16-80mm lens would only cost you about a $1,000 more than a Pentax K20D with a 16-45mm.

$1,000 is all that stands in the way of your happiness, not a bad deal if you ask me.
QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
Fair enough I was trying to compare it to the closest lens type, but if you want to compare the Pentax 16-45 F4 with a Sony Zoom F3.5-5.6 so be it. Perhaps we can split the difference and say for the same money as you would spend on the Sony lens you can have a Pentax 17-70mm F4

$500 more gets you a rather pedestrian quality Sony lens and the fast AF that you covet.

So what's holding you back?
Seriously you don't need my permission to buy a new camera and I think the Sony is a beaut, but I certainly wouldn't pay the extra for it and there is no way I can personally afford the bulk of their lenses (which are quite expensive).

But if it is what you need and it makes you happy buy the Sony.
QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
Yeah but some of us do shoot static scenery and we like our affordable Pentax's - so why don't you outlay your extra cash on a Canon 1DsMK111? Sort of getting tired of being told I'm a fanboy or I'm defensive if I happen to like my camera the way it is - and I'm still on the *ist DS.

Geez it's like smoking (everyone knows it's bad for you by now) if you don't know by now that Pentax doesn't have the fastest AF you must have been living with your head in the sand - if you shoot sport for a living you need a faster & predictive AF system but here's the kicker - YOU HAVE TO PAY MORE FOR IT!!! Take a look at the price of the canon 1dsMK111 and work out how many K20d's you can buy for the same money.

They may develop a faster AF so you can find something else to moan about and they may not - but whatever they do I just hope they continue to make the best value for Dollar cameras & lenses around and let us common shooters of static scenery enjoy our cameras.
I don't know why you continually defend the really awful performance of these cameras - Pentax clearly needs to fix this, they listen to these forums, and if all you do is say how wonderful they are then they will stay 'as wonderful' as they now are; that is to say, ABSOLUTELY PITIFUL, and pretty much dead last in autofocus performance at this point.

QuoteOriginally posted by user440 Quote
You're missing the point. I am not looking for $5000 performance from a $1000 camera, I'm looking for comparable AF performance across other $1000 cameras. I suspect the OP is trying to do the same comparison.
Exactly. Pick up ANY camera that is the same price or cheaper than a K20D and watch it get COMPLETELY spanked in AF performance. And at the pro level, it is simply mind-boggling how far behind they are; light-years behind. They need to SERIOUSLY get their act together; it is just plain silly at this point.

Which is precisely why I was so mad at them introducing a WHITE freaking camera at this point... what on EARTH are they thinking about?

We need to send a STRONG message to Pentax to address this serious situation. ALL of their cameras, even at the $500.00 price point, need SIGNIFICANT AUTOFOCUS IMPROVEMENT to stay competitive at this point.

Sincerely,
Cameron


Last edited by Cambo; 01-01-2009 at 12:52 PM.
01-01-2009, 12:54 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
Exactly. Pick up ANY camera that is the same price or cheaper than a K20D and watch it get COMPLETELY spanked in AF performance.
Any camera? Are you willing to bet on that? If so, how much?
You know, I need money for the new lenses

QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
Which is precisely why I was so mad at them introducing a WHITE freaking camera at this point... what on EARTH are they thinking about?
That a WHITE freaking camera would sell?
Oh, sorry. I agree with you, they should had introduced a top of the line, pro full frame camera instead of the white K-m. The required effort is about the same

Please, leave us. There is no need for you to use such an inferior system.
01-01-2009, 01:21 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
Exactly. Pick up ANY camera that is the same price or cheaper than a K20D and watch it get COMPLETELY spanked in AF performance. And at the pro level, it is simply mind-boggling how far behind they are; light-years behind. They need to SERIOUSLY get their act together; it is just plain silly at this point.
Do you have examples you can post where the AF on a K20d let you down? How many shots have you missed because of the "silly" AF performance? Not what you've read on the interwebs or supposed "tests", but you personally...what percentage of shots have you missed with a K20d due to AF? Not tests, but actual shots.

I can say that for me, the percentage is pretty low.

It is very simple though. If AF performance is mission-critical, then get Canikon. If it isn't, then Pentax is a good choice.

Again, we're back to the moving to Montana and complaining about the cold winters. It is no secret that Pentax's focus is on iq as opposed to chasing spec sheets or keeping up with Canikon fps and af. You can tilt at windmills all you want, but much easier just to change systems and be happy. That way you can have the AF performance you need/want and the rest of us don't have to see endless whining about real (or perceived) AF deficiencies.
01-01-2009, 02:56 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
I don't know why you continually defend the really awful performance of these cameras - Pentax clearly needs to fix this, they listen to these forums, and if all you do is say how wonderful they are then they will stay 'as wonderful' as they now are; that is to say, ABSOLUTELY PITIFUL, and pretty much dead last in autofocus performance at this point.
Sincerely,
Cameron
Who's defending it???? When did I say they are wonderful?????
Certainly not me - what I am saying (and read this carefully now) is that this issue about the AF has been brought up over & over again for the last 3 years that I am aware of. Pentax themselves have stated that with the K20D they made a conscious decision to concentrate on the IQ of the sensor not AF - HOW MUCH CLEARER DO YOU WANT IT!!!!!

I am fully aware of the limitations of the AF but it doesn't matter to me I don't need fast predictive continuous AF - Now don't get me wrong I would certainly love to have it but I am not willing to pay the extra $$$ for it.
If you just have to have it and can't live without it then right this very split second you can go and buy one from various other camera makers.
I have that choice just as all of you do, but I made my choice researching all the pros & cons etc went into the shop wanting a Canon 1D mk11 knowing I could only afford an *ist DS (and as a complete hobbiest it is all I really need)


So again if you aren't happy with your camera purchase look in the mirror and blame that guy, cause it has absolutely nothing to do with me.
01-01-2009, 03:37 PM   #57
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On a K20D...

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Do you have examples you can post where the AF on a K20d let you down? How many shots have you missed because of the "silly" AF performance? Not what you've read on the interwebs or supposed "tests", but you personally...what percentage of shots have you missed with a K20d due to AF?

I can say that for me, the percentage is pretty low.
hundreds of shots when I'm shooting concerts and bands in low club/hall lighting, and I only borrow one of those. On my *ist D, many thousands of shots. On a friends Canon XT rebel, RARELY. And I frequently hear Canon and Nikon users blasting away, and have looked at their screens and see a great deal more keepers than I ever get. And it has been so for a long, long time, right back to the film days.

And when did this become the 'good news/ happy campers only' forum. You go away! Sell all your stuff...



Nitwit...

Cameron
01-01-2009, 03:47 PM   #58
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No, in fact we're a bunch of masochists that uses cameras which won't do the job
Now wait a minute... you're talking about the *istD? Are you aware that's the first Pentax DSLR, a 2003 model? The Rebel XT itself is a 2005 model, and we know the AF systems are improved in time (as many other characteristics).
01-01-2009, 03:49 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
hundreds of shots when I'm shooting concerts and bands in low club/hall lighting, and I only borrow one of those. On my *ist D, many thousands of shots. On a friends Canon XT rebel, RARELY. And I frequently hear Canon and Nikon users blasting away, and have looked at their screens and see a great deal more keepers than I ever get. And it has been so for a long, long time, right back to the film days.

And when did this become the 'good news/ happy campers only' forum. You go away! Sell all your stuff...



Nitwit...

Cameron
My Pentax gear works well for me. I don't want to sell it.

Why in the world do you still shoot Pentax? And you said K20d in your earlier rant. Do you have a K20d? Seriously...if it is as bad as you say, then I'm not sure how you can call me a nitwit. It would seem that you have the wrong tool for the job. Buy a Canikon and be happy.

.
01-01-2009, 03:49 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
We need to send a STRONG message to Pentax to address this serious situation. ALL of their cameras, even at the $500.00 price point, need SIGNIFICANT AUTOFOCUS IMPROVEMENT to stay competitive at this point.

Sincerely,
Cameron
There is nothing wrong with sending a strong message to a manufacturer, but a forum is a poor place to do it. Spend the postage and send them a personal letter. Believe me, it gets a LOT more attention. It shows a commitment in your beliefs and opinions.
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