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01-01-2009, 03:52 PM   #61
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Yeah, you're right; their cameras are just fine...

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No, in fact we're a bunch of masochists that uses cameras which won't do the job
Now wait a minute... you're talking about the *istD? Are you aware that's the first Pentax DSLR, a 2003 model? The Rebel XT itself is a 2005 model, and we know the AF systems are improved in time (as many other characteristics).
QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
My Pentax gear works well for me. I don't want to sell it.

Why in the world do you still shoot Pentax? And you said K20d in your earlier rant. Do you have a K20d? Seriously...if it is as bad as you say, then I'm not sure how you can call me a nitwit. It would seem that you have the wrong tool for the job. Buy a Canikon and be happy.

.
QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
There is nothing wrong with sending a strong message to a manufacturer, but a forum is a poor place to do it. Spend the postage and send them a personal letter. Believe me, it gets a LOT more attention. It shows a commitment in your beliefs and opinions.
and Pentax is in great shape...

http://tinyurl.com/a2dtph

Get a grip...

Cameron

01-01-2009, 04:09 PM   #62
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Ok, now Pentax AF is the worst because Pentax don't have xx.x% market share?
Go away, troll!
01-01-2009, 06:14 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
and Pentax is in great shape...

“Big Two” continue to stomp Digital SLR market in Japan - SlashGear

Get a grip...

Cameron
Let's try a simple question. Do you own/shoot a K20d?
01-01-2009, 07:57 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
and Pentax is in great shape...

“Big Two” continue to stomp Digital SLR market in Japan - SlashGear

Get a grip...

Cameron
Well if we use your market share graphs and statistics one could come the conclusion the Pentax K200D is a better camera than the Nikon D700 and the best camera on the market is a Canon Xsi (Rebel).
To be honest marketshare is only part of the story at the end of the day Profit is King - Selling more than anyone else is pointless if you don't make a profit.

Take a look at Sony, they are aggressively marketing there cameras at very very competitive prices - now I have no evidence to back this but I would hazard a guess that they are selling camera bodies at a loss to cement a market position hoping that enough of their market buy into their very expensive lenses and accesories etc.
It is a legitimate business practice and as long as the losses are offset by the purchasing of high profit margin accessories the tactic may very well pay off.

Pentax firstly need to ensure they are making a profit, they do not have the luxury of up specing their cameras and selling at the same price as they are now. Any investment in AF R&D will require a return and as the Pentax market share is quite small this investment will have to be amortised over a smaller base making for very expensive cameras.

Now why do people buy Pentax - because they offer better value for money (basically they are cheaper). Same reason that the highest selling model is the budget model from canon.
If Pentax dump a heap of cash into developing a faster AF and the faster FPS to go with it (Cause that will be your next whine) they would basically be committing suicide.

The future of Pentax resides with the K-m if that gains market share then you may see R&D into Auto Focus - if it flops you may be waiting a very long time for improved AF.

01-01-2009, 11:13 PM   #65
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There's nothing wrong with the ability of a Pentax to AF in low light or otherwise. Anyone who can't agree to that should get their equipment checked or learn to use it. I always find it problematic when people on photo forums describe strong opinions but refuse to post actual photos demonstrating the problem or lack of problem.

So to those who think Pentax can't AF in low light... what exactly were you shooting. I have absolutely no problem with the low light performance of Pentax. It could improve - for sure - but it certainly works adequately compared to other brands.
ISO 1600; F2.8; 1/3sec


ISO 1600; F2.8; 1/20sec


For sports the AF is quite fast but not predictive. This means that I tend to shoot higher F stop to buy some focus distance. Shooting fast action at F8-10 is sufficient to achieve very high success rate for mountain biking. With a more careful setup (like using catch-in-focus) I can shoot wide open on any of my lenses and get an extremely high success rate. ultimately the AF I believe is fast enough for this type of action but lacks the predictive focusing required to capture at a narrow DOF


So ultimately I have very little sympathy for people who think Pentax AF does not work. It works for me all the time. If it does not work for you I have to conclude that it is either faulty equipment (which happens all the time with all sorts of equipment) or user error.... and either can be easily fixed.

Having said all that I still look forward to improvements in AF performance from Pentax. The speed is quick but could use some improvement and the lack of predictive is obviously a problem that i would like to see them fix with a future generation. It is for these reasons that I bought the dreaded camera that most pro sports shooters still choose - but if Pentax could add those features I would happily ditch the Canon.

Last edited by cwood; 01-01-2009 at 11:19 PM.
01-01-2009, 11:41 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
Because all the AF points in the world doesn't mean the camera is any good at predicting what it needs to do ... jesus my K100D has 11 points and it's absolutely USELESS in AFC mode.

Pick up a D40 and it just blows you away in terms of refinement of it's AF system, maybe comparing it to a 20D is a bit harsh but the D80 leaves it for dead.
Yeah, sure, a 3 point AF system is going to be brilliant at predictive AF. I'm not saying Pentax is great at it, but there's no way a D40 is either. You just threw the D40 in because it's cheap so you can quote price differences.

Here's what DPReview says about the K20D AF.

Pro: Accurate, reliable auto-focus

Con: Autofocus not as fast or consistent in low light as the more expensive competition

Seems fair to me, and its what I experience as well.

I've used a friends Canon 40D a fair bit, and it fails on the same things with its AF as my Pentax does. It is faster at failing tho!
01-02-2009, 10:02 AM   #67
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Pick up any DSLR at the same level or cheaper and it will spank the pentax's AF...

hmm...

Like when I picked up that xSi and every time I pointed it at my friend it would focus on the chair in front of him, even though my friend was under the center AF point... while the demo K200D there focused dead on, just as fast as the canon locked, certainly faster than it took the canon to focus, me select a different focus point, and focus again...

And the D40? I've played with a couple. They struck me as only mildly faster than my old Olympus E-330 (also 3 AF points, not known for speed) and possibly less accurate. Somehow I've managed to shoot moving objects, running people, birds in flight, and dimly lit scenes with my old E-330 and cheap lenses. I think I could manage just fine with a D40, and probably better with a K200D, which seemed to me a bit more useful in the AF department when I last played with one. Seeing as they're supposed to be updating the low-light AF algorithms in a firmware update, I'm pretty darn optimistic.
01-02-2009, 10:22 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by kunik Quote
There's nothing wrong with the ability of a Pentax to AF in low light or otherwise. Anyone who can't agree to that should get their equipment checked or learn to use it.
So ultimately I have very little sympathy for people who think Pentax AF does not work. It works for me all the time. If it does not work for you I have to conclude that it is either faulty equipment (which happens all the time with all sorts of equipment) or user error.... and either can be easily fixed.

It is for these reasons that I bought the dreaded camera that most pro sports shooters still choose - but if Pentax could add those features I would happily ditch the Canon.
Happy to hear you are so incredibly advanced you have no problems with the AF. Sad to see you are so incredibly arrogant you have no sympathy for us mere mortals. It's interesting that somebody as talented as you had to buy a camera with better AF, Hmmm.

01-02-2009, 11:20 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Happy to hear you are so incredibly advanced you have no problems with the AF. Sad to see you are so incredibly arrogant you have no sympathy for us mere mortals. It's interesting that somebody as talented as you had to buy a camera with better AF, Hmmm.
Its not arrogant to state that the equipment is not faulty. If you're not happy with Pentax you are going to have trouble with other similar equipment unless you have a faulty piece of Pentax gear which is entirely possible. Its also not a stretch to say the 1DmkIII is better at AF than the K20D.

--edit--
It is also disingenuous of you to quote me in the manner you have. In my post it is clear why I added the Canon to my equipment - while the way in which you have quoted me it would leave one to believe I have gone to a Canon because my Pentax equipment is faulty or I don't know how to use it which is not the case. It would be appropriate if you removed the first 6 words of the second paragraph of the quote or added the context to which the quote was provided.

Last edited by cwood; 01-02-2009 at 12:37 PM.
01-02-2009, 01:19 PM   #70
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So you're not concerned...

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Ok, now Pentax AF is the worst because Pentax don't have xx.x% market share?
Go away, troll!
that their share of the dslr market in Japan went from 5.8% last year to 1.6% this year? Only one indicator I know, but that is something like a 60% drop in one year. Personally, sounds like an absolute catastrophe to me, and heads should roll, if the company can even survive at this rate.


QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Let's try a simple question. Do you own/shoot a K20d?
I have said repeatedly NO I don't own a K20D, and YES I do shoot with one on occasion because a friend has one - he borrows my lenses from time to time, I borrow his camera. I like the K20D very much, but the AF still hunts and pecks a LOT, even with 2.8 and 1.4 lenses on it. The 85 f1.4 is BETTER, but not great. With f4.5 and slower lenses, the af performance in low light is not even as good as manual focusing, which, in 2009, is quite pathetic, and definitely the WORST thing about the overall performance of the camera as a whole. I was about to buy one, he lent me his about a year ago thinking it would sell me on the camera, I took it to a band's gig in a nightclub, and instead the AF performance left me with wanting to wait till the next model, which I thought at the time may be imminent. With Pentax's approximately 60% drop in sales this year, somehow I doubt it will be now.

Sincerely,
Cameron
01-02-2009, 01:38 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
that their share of the dslr market in Japan went from 5.8% last year to 1.6% this year?
That's not the market share in Japan. And that's not the market share in the entire world either, as you seems to imply later in your post. Btw, you're also wrong, very wrong about Pentax not launching a "next model" this year.
You "forget" many of us have the K20D, and don't want to be reminded by you how "awful" it is. We know very well it's AF behavior, and we agree that it must be improved - while some of us find it adequate, a faster AF is a good thing. However, pointless bashing and exaggeration of it's weak points has become very tiresome/boring, after all those years.
So, please, go away. Or make your own "Pentax AF bashing" thread, which I'll never read - and write only there.
01-02-2009, 02:32 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
that their share of the dslr market in Japan went from 5.8% last year to 1.6% this year? Only one indicator I know, but that is something like a 60% drop in one year. Personally, sounds like an absolute catastrophe to me, and heads should roll, if the company can even survive at this rate.

Sincerely,
Cameron
As usual you are in a big confusion regarding this subject as well as others. The list you quote is of individual models not brands if you're not Pana with only one model in production (L1 I think is in 10K units) and all numbers are reported to the total of sales from 2008. You may see Canon 50D with a paltry 2% in that list and I don't think it sold just a little better than K200D. The problem is that models launched latter in the year were handicapped by this even though they made nice shares in the months they were available. Secondly the total of top 20 makes up for about 93% of total with about 7% rest for cameras that scored under 1% individually and here Pentax has 4 more cameras that actively sell thru parts of 2008 (K100DS, K10D, K20D, K-m).

Now, K200D was available in numbers from late February (early March) till late October. Before that it was K100DS in that class of cameras after October K-m. So in fact Pentax has 2 more cameras which performed about 2.5% of market share from Jan till Dec. Add to that K10D and K20D for at least 1% between them and your "doom and gloom" 1.6% comes out as a more realistically 3.5%. Of course not much and bellow 2007's numbers but 2008 was a year of transition from old management/strategy to new.

What I find essential is that Pentax lost very little money whilst Sony had pretty large losses plus I bet a lot of inventory to get rid of when the new cameras will get on the market.

Radu
01-02-2009, 03:56 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote

Now, K200D was available in numbers from late February (early March) till late October. Before that it was K100DS in that class of cameras after October K-m. So in fact Pentax has 2 more cameras which performed about 2.5% of market share from Jan till Dec. Add to that K10D and K20D for at least 1% between them and your "doom and gloom" 1.6% comes out as a more realistically 3.5%. Of course not much and bellow 2007's numbers but 2008 was a year of transition from old management/strategy to new.

What I find essential is that Pentax lost very little money whilst Sony had pretty large losses plus I bet a lot of inventory to get rid of when the new cameras will get on the market.

Radu
Can't let your fuzzy math slide. For Pentax to reach 3.5% they would have had to capture 28% of the missing 7%. There are a lot of cameras making up that missing segment. If they got 13% of the 7% they would be at a 2.5% market share and that is giving them the benefit of the doubt. Any why you cut it they lost at least 50% of their market share.

That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. If Hoya has been able to streamline the operation enough to be profitable at that level of sales they will become stronger. Judging by the pricing structure of the K-M/ K2000 around the world it appears Hoya is satisfied with the present volume they are getting. This is looking more and more like a company setting itself up as a classical niche marketer.
01-02-2009, 04:02 PM   #74
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You want someone to understand statistics befor drawing a conclusion? Crazy talk. Next you'll want some to actually own and regularly use a particular model befor making sweeping pronouncements concernng performance. And then what? Using their camera to actually shoot photos of something other than brick walls and focus charts?!? Heresy I say!
01-02-2009, 04:31 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Can't let your fuzzy math slide. For Pentax to reach 3.5% they would have had to capture 28% of the missing 7%. There are a lot of cameras making up that missing segment.

Name them, Ken! In the top 20 there are most of the usual suspects from c, n, o and s. I can't say how much Pentax has from the leftovers but I can say for sure that most of the other cameras made it to top 20. Besides they massed under one model all variants sold (body, kit, dual kit) and there are really few cameras left out. From what I know they could make more than the 28% you quote, really but I wanted to be on the safe side.

If they got 13% of the 7% they would be at a 2.5% market share and that is giving them the benefit of the doubt. Any why you cut it they lost at least 50% of their market share.

Again, name some cameras that could be under 1%. I'll help you a bit: Sony A700, Nikon D3, Canon 5D. If you can name some more be my guest but even those 3 were at 0.99% each there are still 4% unaccounted for. I am sure that there will be some 0.1% cameras such as Oly E3, Sigma SD14, Pana L1 for example but still ...

That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. If Hoya has been able to streamline the operation enough to be profitable at that level of sales they will become stronger. Judging by the pricing structure of the K-M/ K2000 around the world it appears Hoya is satisfied with the present volume they are getting. This is looking more and more like a company setting itself up as a classical niche marketer.

I don't agree on that but I guess the following quarter will give us some solid leads on the matter
Regards,
Radu
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