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01-02-2009, 07:07 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by dopeytree Quote
I'm sorry but what about all the olympus travel photographers? they use the thirds system! They had the E-3 Olympus - E-3 and that had the worlds fastest autofocus! So you can't say Full frame is the win all.
The E-3 do not have the fastest AF system against what Oly's Ad claims to be, camera lab test reports revealed the timings already, quite some times ago.

01-02-2009, 07:19 AM   #47
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Ben, you have these "stir the pot" threads down to a science!

I wonder if this will get 50,000 views before it ends?

Personally I don't think they will move to fast on FF but the next top tier model will most likely have faster AF (I hope it stays accurate) and a higher frame rate. The live view will improve and we'll get Video with sound.

I'd also like to see a much better remote assistant software package. The dinky little window on my laptop is basically useless and I'd have a lot more use for that than video.

I didn't think live view was a big deal at first but with longer MF lenses and the zoom in LV, it actually helps with focus in some situations, if you can see the VF. So lets improve the VF and make it 1) brighter and 2) higher resolution.

As for "Pro" status, the K20 and the K10 IMO are darn close to that now.

Have a look at what "Rangefinder" thinks of the K20D. These guys are all Canon and Nikon. So it's nice to see Pentax is making an impression. http://www.rangefindermag.com/repository/rf/articles/pdf/RF1208_FirstExposurePentax_Rettie.pdf

Web site: http://www.rangefindermag.com/
01-02-2009, 07:28 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Will Pentax go Pro? When I say Pro, I mean a camera that many of the Canon and Nikon journalists as well as commercial photographers require. I am a pro and have no problem with the K20D, but there are those out there that demand faster AF, synch speed and FPS. Pentax is still fringe in the pro market and I would love to see a Flagship Model.

Will a pro Pentax increase the stature of their brand?

Ben

Oh and Happy New Year to all.

And a happy new year to you too!!

There are several ways for Pentax to go "pro" (in 2009):
  • the old Pentax way: medium format DSLR: would make perfect sense considering Pentax's past reputation in this market but would probably be too expensive right now...
  • the "fast" way: 6-8fps killer AF APS-C DSLR ala D300: do they have the technical know-how?
  • the "IQ" way: sub-2000€ FF with high pixel count or low noise with 3fps: what's stopping them from doing that?


Guess what option has my preference?

But first things first, pro cameras are good for image but they don't bring food to the table so I wouldn't be surprised to see Pentax concentrating on the lower to middle class market for a while with K200 and K20D successors...
01-02-2009, 08:23 AM   #49
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I suspect they're cooking something up, whatever it is: and I have an intuition it may be pretty interesting to look at, ...they seem fairly hush-hush about it, which could mean there have been or are some bugs to work out or something that might change the final 'look' of them.

Personally, I'm not too interested in them trying to make a direct competitor with the 'pro' cameras.... since I tend to doubt they're going to get anyone who must have the likes of the D3x or current EOS-1 to jump ship unless they've been really holding out.

I's like to see something smallish (maybe staying with a detachable battery grip) and metal-bodied with a superlative viewfinder, and the handling and performance as 'right' as they can make it, ...possibly a real 'system camera' that can be kitted out to appeal to a lot of those who don't quite 'fit' in the big name systems.

01-02-2009, 09:26 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
  • the old Pentax way: medium format DSLR: would make perfect sense considering Pentax's past reputation in this market but would probably be too expensive right now...
The resolution of current higher pixel count Full Frame DSLR is in fact superior to the old 6x7 format, provided of course that the lenses you put on the camera can catch up. But if you own a 3k$ camera, you won't put on cheap lenses

My opinion is that at the moment, Digital Medium Format is not relevant on the market. The sensors are made in very small runs and cost an arm, the higher end 35mm DSLR are improving at a much faster pace and computer designed lenses can keep up with the resolution (for the professional grade ones)

When the gain on performance of FF sensor will be marginal, and Medium Format sensor become affordable then it will become again a big market. But IMO, the market of Medium Format will be extremelly small for the next 5-10 years.
01-02-2009, 09:38 AM   #51
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Is IQ parameters like dynamic rage closely related to pixel size or is it more a question of cost?

I'm just thinking about Pentax sticking to aps-c... Isn't there a possibility to combine the fact that that the smaller sensor (compared to FF) is cheaper to make with the possibility to make an über sensor that normally cost too much on a FF and put it in a future "pro" model?
Is there such known sensor manufacturer or technology?
01-02-2009, 10:21 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
Is IQ parameters like dynamic rage closely related to pixel size or is it more a question of cost?
AFAIK, it's directly related to pixel sensor size (the part that "catches" photons) and the ADC (thing that measures #photons).
That's why the D700 and D3's sensor currently beats every other sensor for dynamic range...and the new D3x and A900 sensor sucks at dynamic range and low light sensitivity
01-02-2009, 10:46 AM   #53
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Kenyee, are you sure about that? The dynamic range of the A900, at lower ISOs, has been widely praised. Admittedly the D3 is better at higher sensitivities, but the sony's range in the highlights is hard to beat. And then there are compacts with high pixel counts that capture a range remarkably close to lower end DSLRs (with much larger photoreceptors). The DR of the sensor depends on quite a few more things than the physical area of each photosite.

"sucks" is a word to be careful of...

Supernaut, I've been thinking about the possibilities of a highly advanced APS-C sensor myself. If they were to take a normal 10mp sensor and divide each photocell into three, but maintain the same 10mp color filter, and then in each color pixel the smaller three pixels have one normal sensitivity, one lower sensitivity, and one higher sensitivity, you get about three times the luminanance resolution, much better DR (due to the sub-pixels of different sensitivities) and probably about the same or slightly better color resolution. Not sure about noise improvements, but the noise-per-area would remain approximately the same. I imagine you could do some more intensive NR while retaining detail. Of course, something like this is going to require some wierd RAW processing algorithms, so maybe there could be two different jpeg "modes" in-camera, one that gives you a normal 10mp file but incorporates the sub-pixel exposure information so that you get a broader DR, and a slower mode that gives you a ~30mp file that incorporates all the sensor data. Of course, it's possible that they could use that sort of pixel layout but design a different color array filter to take better advantage of the design and get higher color resolution while keeping the 30mp luminance resolution and the higher DR.

Something like that would likely be more expensive than current APS sensors to manufacture, but it could certainly give FF a run for its money (probably surpass it in some ways). Of course, the competitors could make FF sensors with similar tech, but they'd likely be much more expensive to produce.

01-02-2009, 11:02 AM   #54
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APS-C sensors can have bigger receptors simply by changing the pixel configuration ala Fuji-Films latest CCD designs for their upscale P & S cameras.
01-02-2009, 11:04 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
Kenyee, are you sure about that? The dynamic range of the A900, at lower ISOs, has been widely praised. Admittedly the D3 is better at higher sensitivities, but the sony's range in the highlights is hard to beat. And then there are compacts with high pixel counts that capture a range remarkably close to lower end DSLRs (with much larger photoreceptors). The DR of the sensor depends on quite a few more things than the physical area of each photosite.

"sucks" is a word to be careful of...

Supernaut, I've been thinking about the possibilities of a highly advanced APS-C sensor myself. If they were to take a normal 10mp sensor and divide each photocell into three, but maintain the same 10mp color filter, and then in each color pixel the smaller three pixels have one normal sensitivity, one lower sensitivity, and one higher sensitivity, you get about three times the luminanance resolution, much better DR (due to the sub-pixels of different sensitivities) and probably about the same or slightly better color resolution. Not sure about noise improvements, but the noise-per-area would remain approximately the same. I imagine you could do some more intensive NR while retaining detail. Of course, something like this is going to require some wierd RAW processing algorithms, so maybe there could be two different jpeg "modes" in-camera, one that gives you a normal 10mp file but incorporates the sub-pixel exposure information so that you get a broader DR, and a slower mode that gives you a ~30mp file that incorporates all the sensor data. Of course, it's possible that they could use that sort of pixel layout but design a different color array filter to take better advantage of the design and get higher color resolution while keeping the 30mp luminance resolution and the higher DR.

Something like that would likely be more expensive than current APS sensors to manufacture, but it could certainly give FF a run for its money (probably surpass it in some ways). Of course, the competitors could make FF sensors with similar tech, but they'd likely be much more expensive to produce.
Dynamic range will increase in the highlights w/ larger photosites "if" shadow noise is also kept down. As in anything in life, not all is as it seems to be.
If a FF camera skimps on circuitry on the dark side their increase in DR in the highlights is lost. The more accurate we are in shadow/dark signal fidelity the smaller the DR increase due to pixel size. Of course some argue that increasing the dark end resolution will automatically transfer over to ff cameras. As in most things "businesslike" this will generally only be true, initially, w/ high priced goods.
Anyways we are generally argueing a 1 stop advantage.
I personally favor high pixel density and good circuitry design to clean up the shadows. Of course as soon as you get high density pixels in a large sensor with high quality circuitry at a sub-$1000 price, now you got me listening...
Optimizing Dynamic Range -- Part I
01-02-2009, 11:12 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
There are many professionals using Pentax (of course, not as many as the big two, but they're not one or two in number also), just not much high-profile ones. I agree that it's not just a new body or two that will make Pentax appealing to pro photographers, but the existence of a professional support system, like Canon and Nikon has, and make it available the world over, and not just the US. I would think that that professional support system would bring more pros into the fold than me-too pro-spec camera releases.

I have zero need for such a system, being a simple amateur, but pros need that for their daily grind and more importantly, their livelihood, which then makes it all the more important for them to get top-notch service when sh*t happens.
vinzer's got it right, even if pentax come out with the greatest camera of all time, seems like current reports of Pentax QC and speed of service are not up to professional standards.
01-02-2009, 11:55 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
...Add to that there will NEVER be a FF unless Samsung demands it. APS-H is an outside possibility.
What, this (from last April) not concrete enough for you to ensure that it will happen? Samsung hints at full-frame sensor. Operative word being "hints", and article reading
QuoteQuote:
"So far, however, the sensor has only reached the design stage and it is far from clear whether it will become a reality.

We also understand that, late last year, Samsung Electronics set up a secret team within its HQ in Suwon to begin research on a professional DSLR.

Samsung has also made clear that its relationship with Pentax is ongoing. "
(i.e., read as Pentax would build it) I've seen far less keep rumor threads going for months on this board!

Last edited by m8o; 01-02-2009 at 12:36 PM. Reason: expanded the quote
01-02-2009, 11:57 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
Kenyee, are you sure about that? The dynamic range of the A900, at lower ISOs, has been widely praised. Admittedly the D3 is better at higher sensitivities, but the sony's range in the highlights is hard to beat
ok...my observation sucked
Checked DPR's tables and the D700 has a 7.9ev range between ISO200-1600.
The A900 has a usable range between 9.1 and 9.4 between ISO200-1600.
The K20D peaks at ISO100-200 at 9-8.6ev, then drops from 7.9 to 7.1 at ISO1600.

In RAW, the the D700 has a little over 3 stops of extra info, the A900 has 2.5stops, and the K20D has slightly under 1 stop. Sounds like the A900 has cleaner circuitry inside so it doesn't have much noise in dark areas?
01-02-2009, 12:14 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
ok...my observation sucked
Checked DPR's tables and the D700 has a 7.9ev range between ISO200-1600.
The A900 has a usable range between 9.1 and 9.4 between ISO200-1600.
The K20D peaks at ISO100-200 at 9-8.6ev, then drops from 7.9 to 7.1 at ISO1600.

In RAW, the the D700 has a little over 3 stops of extra info, the A900 has 2.5stops, and the K20D has slightly under 1 stop. Sounds like the A900 has cleaner circuitry inside so it doesn't have much noise in dark areas?
don't use DPR dynamic range data...... just my advice (and others)........
01-02-2009, 12:35 PM   #60
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Yeah, DPReview is useful for some basic stuff but you need to supplement the info with other things. I find the observations of people like Michael Reichmann over at Luminous Landscape and that guy who writes "the online photographer" to be more hands-on and useful.
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