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01-02-2009, 12:40 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
don't use DPR dynamic range data...... just my advice (and others)........
imaging-resource's data shows effectively the same DR between the A900 and D700.
The K10D is 1-2 stops less...they didn't test the K20D yet for some reason...

01-02-2009, 01:20 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
I've seen far less keep rumor threads going for months on this board!
LOL!!! How true!!! OK, so let's see if we can get that hint to have legs. What if while researching a FF sensor they came up with one larger than APS-C but smaller than FF that comes very close to a FF's DR and noise. I'm not restricting that to any particular size, just bigger than APS-C. As good as the K20D sensor is, if you upsized it a little and made it 18MP, it would give any FF camera a run for it's money. It would be able to use the DA lenses as well as legacy glass. The cost of it would be a lot less than a FF and it could handle SR better because of size. You could make the body a little smaller than the K20D and pitch it as the ultimate portable landscape camera. Heck shooters like Ben would love it.

Add a $10 IR AF assist lamp for low light and let the people that want state of the art AF go pound sand. MSPR of $1,299 and I'm standing in line. It would be a pro camera for a small section of that market.
01-02-2009, 01:24 PM   #63
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haven't read all the posts in this thread, so this may have been brought up before, but, In january of 2008, Pentax made a press release about a pro program with equipment leasing and repair turnaround for qualified pros. Now that leads me to believe maybe Pentax hasn't abandoned the pro market completely and may still surprise us with a new body. On a side note why do people feel a metal body is a requirement for a pro camera? I usually don't drive nails with my K10 or PZ1p and if I somehow manage to damage these body's, I most likeky had a bad enough wreck that I'm not too worried about shooting pics at that moment.
01-02-2009, 03:42 PM   #64
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Just give us a Pentax version of the D300/E-3

Give us the AF accuracy and speed, 100% viewfinder and put in the best, new improved 15 MP APS-C sensor (14 bit) that they can come up with, improved live view, larger high rez LCD. Offer an improved grip and improve the flash system. With stabilized weather-sealed body and with the lenses scheduled, I think a lot of people would be very happy and this would be close enough to a pro model. Close enough, in fact to defer the need for FF for a couple of years.

01-02-2009, 08:43 PM   #65
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Well back in the not so distant past Pentax was what everyone shot. The first Japanese SLR was pentax and the first auto-focus SLR was also pentax. Canon was really just a no-body and it was Nikon and Pentax that really duke it out. Canon figured out a long time ago that there was a market for "pro-equipment". Pro's shot what prosumers shot, they just had more lenses. So Canon came out with stuff like the L series and Nikon decided to follow suit. Pentax decided to stay in the prosumer market. What real reason does pentax have for going up market?? Like Nikon D3 and D2's and Canon 1D's are sold at a loss. With all the tech and RD that goes into those Nikon and Canon make their money by migrating that tech down the line in their profitable cameras. The only real difference between Pentax and NiCanon is that NiCanons are built for like 34235235215 autofocus points and freaky fast shutters for things like sports photography. You would never see a pentax at the sideline of a football, they just aren't fast enough. However pentax chose to develop sensors and focus on their amazing primes. Under most situations out of the world of needing something high speed, a 1000 dollar pentax will shoot just as good as a 5 grand NiCanon.

If you are in the fashion photography world you can shoot pentax and some do. The K20d for instance is pretty much a pro-body. Its rugger, waterproof and built like a rock.

I think Pentax will continue to do what they are doing now which is the profitable prosumer market converting NiCanon entry level D90 and perhaps 40D shooters over to pentax dSLR's.
01-03-2009, 12:52 AM   #66
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First.... and Samsung

Pentax introduced K-m/K2000 as Pentax use to do, start with the cheapest camera at a new line off cameras.

Then K200D are to close to K2000, so the next K300D, going to be like a updated K20D more or less using batterygrip BG2 or BG3. Perhaps it will be two cameras like Sony 200/300/350, 10 and 14Mp and with and without Video.

When K30D cant be to close to K300D, so itīs going to lay over Nikon 300 and Olympus E3. I guess on: improved 14Mp sensor, Video, sound recording, better dynamic range, remote most of adjustment of camera settings from computer, AF-lamp, pre-eye-control of focus(so autofocus go faster when you press down shutter/AF) and more ...
A pro?

Most here on Pentaxforums are not considering Samsung. I think Samsung want to build a FF-Camera because Sony have one, and Pentax want to make a K645D because it can be profitable for Pentax, a MF camera at a price like Canon/Nikons most expensive ones. We see if they come ...
01-03-2009, 02:48 AM   #67
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To say honest to make only APS-C K30D with new AF and old Samsung CMOS sensor is pragmatic, of course,
but if Hoya really want to offer TOP camera it should be
1. MF digital camera for 645/67 lenses.
2. FF camera like A900 under 2000 USD

K30D won't be the best-seller...100%. K30D should be launched with TOP camera together.
So we can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Pentax need to offer something like A700 and A900 (D300/D700) in Pentax version, better and cheaper.

Last edited by ogl; 01-03-2009 at 02:54 AM.
01-03-2009, 03:05 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Photomy Quote
Give us the AF accuracy and speed, 100% viewfinder and put in the best, new improved 15 MP APS-C sensor (14 bit) that they can come up with, improved live view, larger high rez LCD. Offer an improved grip and improve the flash system. With stabilized weather-sealed body and with the lenses scheduled, I think a lot of people would be very happy and this would be close enough to a pro model. Close enough, in fact to defer the need for FF for a couple of years.
It's not enough. The new version of K10D/K20D is not real progress.
15 Mp at APS-C is the end of MP race. It's real to make more, but it cause much worse colors and early diffraction of lenses. It can't make the end picture better.

Hoya should offer APS-H or FF camera.

01-03-2009, 03:09 AM   #69
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How many companies right now are capable of making an actual DSLR system at all?
Digital backs, bridge cameras, few sold units per year, or some prototypes dosnt count.
Why have not all those electronics companies that seem to be able make all the other stuff you can imagine (starting from pocket radios, to compact cameras) started producing all kinds of odd DSLR's (like in film days.. in pbase i can find so many 35mm SLR models and manufacturers..where are they now?).
I think having the ability to produce, develop and sustain fully featured and competitive DSLR and lens line already makes pentax a PRO.
Even such companies as Kodak, Fuji, Praktica, Ricoh and similar have settled down just for compacts or some very specific things. Although Fuji has done great job with their sensors and colors even in that area.
Just a taught.
01-03-2009, 03:26 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
It's not enough. The new version of K10D/K20D is not real progress.
15 Mp at APS-C is the end of MP race. It's real to make more, but it cause much worse colors and early diffraction of lenses. It can't make the end picture better.

Hoya should offer APS-H or FF camera.
What for? How big do you print? Who would buy it?
01-03-2009, 04:28 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
What for? How big do you print? Who would buy it?
You don't understand me. I say about - what then?
APS-C has reasonable limit already. To where to go tomorrow?
It's unreasonably to make APS-C sensor with higher MP.
01-03-2009, 04:31 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
One thing that I remarked when I read some reviews of Nikon's D700 and Sony's Alpha 900 is that the 100% viewfinder of the Sony was highly praised while the 95% (or so) of the Nikon got some reviewers angry. Would a 100% viewfinder for the K30D a big selling point for pros ? I think so, and even making a viewfinder of more than 100% would be very much apreciated (like using a full frame 100% pentaprism system) The idea behind is that by making so we allow the photographer to control what is coming in the image. This one of the points that made the preference of some pros on rangefinder (Leica) over the SLRs during the film era.
I'd be happy with the same K20D sensor, improved AF and higher FPS count, an AF-assist light, and a really big VF.

Perhaps someone could shine a light on how much cost is added with a bigger pentaprism/VF system?

QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
Yeah, DPReview is useful for some basic stuff but you need to supplement the info with other things. I find the observations of people like Michael Reichmann over at Luminous Landscape and that guy who writes "the online photographer" to be more hands-on and useful.
That would be Michael Johnston, I believe. And yes, I trust their field reports more so than DPReview. That's not a diss on DPReview, since they're one of the best in providing controlled tests, but there are stuff that DPReview misses, one of those is how it feels shooting with the camera itself.

QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
LOL!!! How true!!! OK, so let's see if we can get that hint to have legs. What if while researching a FF sensor they came up with one larger than APS-C but smaller than FF that comes very close to a FF's DR and noise. I'm not restricting that to any particular size, just bigger than APS-C. As good as the K20D sensor is, if you upsized it a little and made it 18MP, it would give any FF camera a run for it's money. It would be able to use the DA lenses as well as legacy glass. The cost of it would be a lot less than a FF and it could handle SR better because of size. You could make the body a little smaller than the K20D and pitch it as the ultimate portable landscape camera. Heck shooters like Ben would love it.

Add a $10 IR AF assist lamp for low light and let the people that want state of the art AF go pound sand. MSPR of $1,299 and I'm standing in line. It would be a pro camera for a small section of that market.
I have no APS-C-specific glass, but I'm okay with Pentax keeping APS-C (or a slightly better one as you posit) technology as long as it delivers the photographic goods (which APS-C still does and your proposed system will do).

QuoteOriginally posted by ytterbium Quote
How many companies right now are capable of making an actual DSLR system at all?
Digital backs, bridge cameras, few sold units per year, or some prototypes dosnt count.
Why have not all those electronics companies that seem to be able make all the other stuff you can imagine (starting from pocket radios, to compact cameras) started producing all kinds of odd DSLR's (like in film days.. in pbase i can find so many 35mm SLR models and manufacturers..where are they now?).
I think having the ability to produce, develop and sustain fully featured and competitive DSLR and lens line already makes pentax a PRO.
Even such companies as Kodak, Fuji, Praktica, Ricoh and similar have settled down just for compacts or some very specific things. Although Fuji has done great job with their sensors and colors even in that area.
Just a taught.
Ducati once made Leica screw mount rangefinders, but I digress. I just found that interesting.

I think the point of debate is not Pentax's professionalism, but if they would make a pro-spec camera. Of course, with the definition of "pro" up in the air, it's hard to make final assessments that is palatable to all.

QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
You're right about the support system, but it's going to be very hard to justify the expense of maintaining such a system if there's only a small percentage of pros using Pentax cameras. I think we get blinded to the overall picture sometimes because we already have an investment in Pentax. For Pentax to be a player in the pro ranks, they can't just equal the offerings from Nikon and Canon. They're going to have to give folks a reason to jump ship and join the Pentax fold, so they'll need a superior product. By superior, I mean a technically superior product. Offering bang for the buck is a lot more attractive to amateurs than professionals because pros can write off their equipment expenses. So I don't really look for Pentax to try and compete feature-for-feature with Nikon and Canon. Instead, I think they'll do what they've always done, which is offer cameras that have the image quality to equal the best from Nikon and Canon, even though they may not have all the same bells and whistles.
I'm perfectly okay with that, since I have zero intention of turning pro. But I do understand those who have real need for pro-spec equipment. Having pros shoot Pentax does bring credibility for the Pentax brand to the masses who mostly have grown up thinking that pros could only shoot Nikon and Canon.

My only concern is that Pentax won't forget people like me who bought into them because of value-for-money.
01-03-2009, 05:11 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
You don't understand me. I say about - what then?
APS-C has reasonable limit already. To where to go tomorrow?
It's unreasonably to make APS-C sensor with higher MP.
But who needs one? Do you have an A2 printer? To you regularly have prints done at that size or larger?

14.5MP is fine for most double page magazine work and most stock agencies, very sharp prints at A3 and pretty decent prints at A2 and even larger.

FF is diffraction limited at 30MP, but with diminishing returns. To get the required DOF for landscape images you have to stop down more, so you hit the limit earlier.

Even so, thats only one paper size bigger. If you print A2 prints from an A900 and a K20D, you will see only a difference from close up. From normal viewing distances, its pretty hard to tell.

To get exhibition grade results larger than that you really do need an MF camera. There may not be many more pixels but the per-pixel sharpness is generally much better and they nearly all have a much wider colour space and a lot more DR.

So I ask again, who cares and what is the point anyway? Why dont we all rush out and buy MF?
01-03-2009, 05:19 AM   #74
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Will they?

I too would love to see a pro level camera, probably wouldn't buy one, but it's something to aspire too. But in the current market, I can't see them wasting the limited r & d money.
01-03-2009, 06:02 AM   #75
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It's strange that Pentax can't offer 645D. The working prototype was in the spring of 2007.

The TOP camera is the vector of progress of company. K30D with the same CMOS sensor is not the progress.

Sony offers cameras with CCD and CMOS sensors and FF camera.

I don't want to see the same 15 MP APS-C sensor in all Pentax cameras forever.
To say honest I'm not delighted with CMOS sensor from Sony, Samsung and Canon (12.2, 14.6 and 15.1 MP)...
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