Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
01-05-2009, 11:12 AM   #91
Veteran Member
lol101's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Garennes sur Eure France
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 900
QuoteOriginally posted by Chwisch87 Quote
Exactly ... all of those super high end ni-canons are made a loss with the hope of more consumer level models selling because "the pro's shoot nicanon"
I think this is a wrong assesment: although the comercial argument about pros using a certain brand is certainly helping the sale of the lower end models: pro models are largely profitable by themselves.

Super high end models (1D series) are sold in relatively small numbers (esp. the 1Ds ones) but carry a VERY significant margin (think about how much they gain from a 1DsIII @ 8000$ when you see the 5DII coming out with almost the same sensor at 2700$... and still I'll bet with a very respectable margin on it!).

They mean nothing in terms of market share but they are very profitable by themselves but also by the derivatives sells of high end lenses and accessories they bring.

R&D costs are recouped very fast on higher end models and that's about the same in any industry...

01-05-2009, 01:17 PM   #92
Veteran Member
*isteve's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 1,187
QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
I think this is a wrong assesment: although the comercial argument about pros using a certain brand is certainly helping the sale of the lower end models: pro models are largely profitable by themselves.

Super high end models (1D series) are sold in relatively small numbers (esp. the 1Ds ones) but carry a VERY significant margin (think about how much they gain from a 1DsIII @ 8000$ when you see the 5DII coming out with almost the same sensor at 2700$... and still I'll bet with a very respectable margin on it!).

They mean nothing in terms of market share but they are very profitable by themselves but also by the derivatives sells of high end lenses and accessories they bring.

R&D costs are recouped very fast on higher end models and that's about the same in any industry...
Not true, and besides you are applying the wrong model. Luxury BRANDS can often recoup the cost of high end models because they can get away with high prices. Pentax cant do that in the FF market, nor can they guarantee enough models per batch to obtain components at a decent price.
01-05-2009, 03:03 PM   #93
Pentaxian
Duplo's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Copenhagen
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 916
QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
I think this is a wrong assesment: although the comercial argument about pros using a certain brand is certainly helping the sale of the lower end models: pro models are largely profitable by themselves.

Super high end models (1D series) are sold in relatively small numbers (esp. the 1Ds ones) but carry a VERY significant margin (think about how much they gain from a 1DsIII @ 8000$ when you see the 5DII coming out with almost the same sensor at 2700$... and still I'll bet with a very respectable margin on it!).

They mean nothing in terms of market share but they are very profitable by themselves but also by the derivatives sells of high end lenses and accessories they bring.

R&D costs are recouped very fast on higher end models and that's about the same in any industry...
Yes the top end series from Nikon and canon does come with a rather hefty price tag, but there is a lot of work in them too and a lot of very high grade components. So I think it would be difficult to guess whether or not the product line is paying off on its own.
I would guess it breaks more or less even, but not much more.

Above aside I am completely with steve on this one, but I would love to be proven wrong though.
01-05-2009, 03:48 PM   #94
Veteran Member
lol101's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Garennes sur Eure France
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 900
QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Not true, and besides you are applying the wrong model. Luxury BRANDS can often recoup the cost of high end models because they can get away with high prices. Pentax cant do that in the FF market, nor can they guarantee enough models per batch to obtain components at a decent price.
I was answering a previous poster saying that Canon and Nikon high-end models are sold at a loss: this is just not true.

Now, I agree that what is good for Canon or Nikon might not be for Pentax because of their very limited market penetration, lack of reputation (the "pro" one I mean) and shallower pockets.

Of course there is no way Pentax could do for 1500$ what others are selling 2500$ and if they can't sell 1000$ models, you are probably right that they won't be able to sell 2000$ ones.

Hence leading to small market shares, hence leading to shallow pockets, hence leading to no high end models, and so on and so forth... survival at best as a niche player but of what niche?

Seriously, I am asking once more: what does Pentax have that others don't? What would be their niche? Their haven from competition? I am just trying to see a way to go from Pentax from where they stand now...

01-05-2009, 03:56 PM   #95
Veteran Member
deejjjaaaa's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: steel city / rust belt
Posts: 2,046
QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Iwhen you see the 5DII coming out with almost the same sensor at 2700$
btw: it was posted on TOP blog - right now B&H has D700 new, body @ USD $2320 + free shipping... and that is B&H... not the cheapest place.
01-05-2009, 03:58 PM   #96
Veteran Member
lol101's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Garennes sur Eure France
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 900
QuoteOriginally posted by Duplo Quote
Yes the top end series from Nikon and canon does come with a rather hefty price tag, but there is a lot of work in them too and a lot of very high grade components. So I think it would be difficult to guess whether or not the product line is paying off on its own.
I would guess it breaks more or less even, but not much more.

Above aside I am completely with steve on this one, but I would love to be proven wrong though.
You'd be surprised at how many common "bits and pieces" 1D/1Ds/50D and 5D have in common and how many were carried from previous cameras...

Look at D3/D300/D700/D3X....

This is how you recoup R&D money: common pieces, reuse everything you can and optimize cost.

Whether or not Hoya/Samsung can do the same, I don't know... but those two certainly have deeper pockets than the now defunct Pentax ever had.

The real unknown is: do they have a vision and some ambitions for their products?
01-05-2009, 04:15 PM   #97
Veteran Member
nostatic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: socal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,576
QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote

Seriously, I am asking once more: what does Pentax have that others don't? What would be their niche? Their haven from competition? I am just trying to see a way to go from Pentax from where they stand now...
There is no "haven" from the competition. It is a constant battle. Pentax needs differentiation, and imho there are a couple of ways they currently do this (albeit with arguable degrees of success). First, they do have a rich history to play off of, and get some buy-in from returning shooters. That is never going to be a huge market though, and it is shrinking all the time.

The ltd primes are where they differentiate from the competition. That will likely be a niche market as well, but one that isn't necessarily shrinking. They also have arguably better iq than equivalent Canikon body/lens combinations. The weather proofing is another differentiation point.

Pentax can't really sell based on spec sheet, so they have to go "lifestyle" and for people who want to be different. "Shoot different" perhaps. The waterproof p&s is a great model for them. So setting themselves up as *the* choice for the discerning outdoor shooter who doesn't necessarily want to carry a 5lb camera, tripod, etc, but rather be active and shoot. Also the design aesthetic of the small limited primes are another sales area. I'd like to see a "pro" Km with ltd primes...ie a small camera that isn't over simplified. A shooter's camera.

The other thing you might see is a strategic alliance. Olympus? Leica (even more interesting)? Given the buzz on the G1, what if Pentax made a mirror-less APS sensor camera? Slap a ltd prime on that and you've got a killer small system.
01-05-2009, 04:29 PM   #98
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 379
QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
There is no "haven" from the competition. It is a constant battle. Pentax needs differentiation, and imho there are a couple of ways they currently do this (albeit with arguable degrees of success). First, they do have a rich history to play off of, and get some buy-in from returning shooters. That is never going to be a huge market though, and it is shrinking all the time.

The ltd primes are where they differentiate from the competition. That will likely be a niche market as well, but one that isn't necessarily shrinking. They also have arguably better iq than equivalent Canikon body/lens combinations. The weather proofing is another differentiation point.

Pentax can't really sell based on spec sheet, so they have to go "lifestyle" and for people who want to be different. "Shoot different" perhaps. The waterproof p&s is a great model for them. So setting themselves up as *the* choice for the discerning outdoor shooter who doesn't necessarily want to carry a 5lb camera, tripod, etc, but rather be active and shoot. Also the design aesthetic of the small limited primes are another sales area. I'd like to see a "pro" Km with ltd primes...ie a small camera that isn't over simplified. A shooter's camera.
I agree with this. When I show advanced or pro shooters my DA Limiteds, they are almost always impressed and interested. And very rarely had they even known about these lenses. The prime market definitely is a niche market, but at least it's a niche that Pentax can own if they push their marketing in that direction. Right now they're kind of lost in the shuffle, and being different is not worth a lot if nobody knows about it. The K2000 looks awesome with the DA40 on it, and a small but "pro" featured body matched with a killer prime lineup would be a unique, stand-out product.

01-05-2009, 06:00 PM   #99
Pentaxian
Duplo's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Copenhagen
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 916
QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
You'd be surprised at how many common "bits and pieces" 1D/1Ds/50D and 5D have in common and how many were carried from previous cameras...

Look at D3/D300/D700/D3X....

This is how you recoup R&D money: common pieces, reuse everything you can and optimize cost.

Whether or not Hoya/Samsung can do the same, I don't know... but those two certainly have deeper pockets than the now defunct Pentax ever had.

The real unknown is: do they have a vision and some ambitions for their products?
I agree with you on a lot of it and yes there are definitely some reuse and evolutionary development going on, but it gets a lot easier when you have a product range as large as the big two and a userbase to take the needed quantities of products off your hands.

I am not certain pentax has that.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
The ltd primes are where they differentiate from the competition. That will likely be a niche market as well, but one that isn't necessarily shrinking. They also have arguably better iq than equivalent Canikon body/lens combinations. The weather proofing is another differentiation point.
I agree with you here about thel imiteds, the primes is what pentax does extremely well, and one learn to appreciate picking up 3 limiteds, when having hauled a full set of gear for a couple of full days in the field

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Pentax can't really sell based on spec sheet, so they have to go "lifestyle" and for people who want to be different. "Shoot different" perhaps. The waterproof p&s is a great model for them. So setting themselves up as *the* choice for the discerning outdoor shooter who doesn't necessarily want to carry a 5lb camera, tripod, etc, but rather be active and shoot. Also the design aesthetic of the small limited primes are another sales area. I'd like to see a "pro" Km with ltd primes...ie a small camera that isn't over simplified. A shooter's camera.
Agreed.
Though I tend to think much outdoor and landscape photography from my point of view, benefits from either the rugged top line bodies or tripods and other stuff.

Then a limited camera to go with the limiteds would be very welcome by me too

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
The other thing you might see is a strategic alliance. Olympus? Leica (even more interesting)? Given the buzz on the G1, what if Pentax made a mirror-less APS sensor camera? Slap a ltd prime on that and you've got a killer small system.
I disagree here, but that is because EVFs and liveview, simply are useless for much of what I do, when shooting my lowlight landscapes and auroras, not even the D3's sensor is able to produce anything but a pichblack picture on the screen.
And while I have nothing aganst oly, they simply do not appeal to me and my way of working, so that would not be a good thing I think...
Leica though is a different story, but I would find that unlikely as we are talking a completely different market.
01-05-2009, 06:08 PM   #100
Veteran Member
nostatic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: socal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,576
QuoteOriginally posted by Duplo Quote
I disagree here, but that is because EVFs and liveview, simply are useless for much of what I do, when shooting my lowlight landscapes and auroras, not even the D3's sensor is able to produce anything but a pichblack picture on the screen.
And while I have nothing aganst oly, they simply do not appeal to me and my way of working, so that would not be a good thing I think...
Leica though is a different story, but I would find that unlikely as we are talking a completely different market.
I understand the trepidation with EVF, and while the G1 is better than previous ones, I still don't really like it. But I find that one can frame with the rear display (if you're into that kind of thing) and my guess is that a lot of people, especially ones coming from P&S, are going to use the camera that way.

Oly probably won't be a partner as I don't see Pentax going 4/3. Leica though isn't a completely different market, and in fact Leica doesn't have an APSC camera in their lineup. They did flirt in 4/3 but that seems to have gone by the wayside. The design ethic of the companies is somewhat similar as well. It could be interesting, but not likely as both companies are pretty conservative with their business and development strategies.
01-05-2009, 06:27 PM   #101
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bangor, Maine
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,382
QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote

Seriously, I am asking once more: what does Pentax have that others don't? What would be their niche? Their haven from competition? I am just trying to see a way to go from Pentax from where they stand now...
I've been asking myself the same question and have come up with one niche that might be worth 400,000 units a year at a profitable selling price. A very high resolution smaller body than the K20D that is highly sealed. Ideally a sensor based on the present K20D one but slightly larger. Added outdoor special features like GPS. A high res LCD able to give critical focus while on a tripod. The AF would have to be upgraded but not by very much. It would be marketed as a compact unit that rivals FF in average light for resolution, 16-18MP. It would sell for more than the D90 types but less than a low end FF.

A down scale body much like the Panny G1. Get rid of the AA batteries on the K-M because of weight, Go to EV, weather seal it and reduce size. Limit the line to just the two units. The slogan is "Compact, rugged, and high res"

The question is has Hoya cut enough fat so Pentax can be profitable at this small a market share.
01-05-2009, 06:33 PM   #102
Pentaxian
Duplo's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Copenhagen
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 916
QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
I understand the trepidation with EVF, and while the G1 is better than previous ones, I still don't really like it. But I find that one can frame with the rear display (if you're into that kind of thing) and my guess is that a lot of people, especially ones coming from P&S, are going to use the camera that way.
It may still be what you are used to I guess...
But the limitations of the EVF and liveview is simply way too great at this point in time. If I have a black liveview display at ISO 25600 and f1.2 then it is going to do me no good. I am still perfectly able to focus manually with the same lens and a viewfinder.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Oly probably won't be a partner as I don't see Pentax going 4/3. Leica though isn't a completely different market, and in fact Leica doesn't have an APSC camera in their lineup. They did flirt in 4/3 but that seems to have gone by the wayside. The design ethic of the companies is somewhat similar as well. It could be interesting, but not likely as both companies are pretty conservative with their business and development strategies.
What I meant by different market, is that Leica is catering to a much higher end market, I just have a hard time seeing them benefit from each other thats all.
01-05-2009, 06:57 PM   #103
Pentaxian
Moderator Emeritus




Join Date: May 2007
Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 10,648
QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
I've been asking myself the same question and have come up with one niche that might be worth 400,000 units a year at a profitable selling price. A very high resolution smaller body than the K20D that is highly sealed. Ideally a sensor based on the present K20D one but slightly larger. Added outdoor special features like GPS. A high res LCD able to give critical focus while on a tripod. The AF would have to be upgraded but not by very much. It would be marketed as a compact unit that rivals FF in average light for resolution, 16-18MP. It would sell for more than the D90 types but less than a low end FF.

A down scale body much like the Panny G1. Get rid of the AA batteries on the K-M because of weight, Go to EV, weather seal it and reduce size. Limit the line to just the two units. The slogan is "Compact, rugged, and high res"

The question is has Hoya cut enough fat so Pentax can be profitable at this small a market share.
Yeah and make it a rangefinder with a high res LCD. Push it with the pancakes as a street shooter camera. The rangefinder would be a dream with no mirror slap.

I`d get one in a heartbeat.
01-05-2009, 07:10 PM   #104
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bangor, Maine
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,382
QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Yeah and make it a rangefinder with a high res LCD. Push it with the pancakes as a street shooter camera. The rangefinder would be a dream with no mirror slap.

I`d get one in a heartbeat.
I tried the G1 today. The boost available on the EVF and LCD was amazing. If Pentax had one about the same size I'd be paying the price and buying pancakes.
01-05-2009, 07:45 PM   #105
Veteran Member
nostatic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: socal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,576
QuoteOriginally posted by Duplo Quote

What I meant by different market, is that Leica is catering to a much higher end market, I just have a hard time seeing them benefit from each other thats all.
Leica sells sub-$1K P&S cameras. They're in both ends of the market - they just don't really have anything in the middle.

Also, you should try the G1 in low light and see what you think about the EVF and live view. While it is certainly different (and I don't care for the "look" of the image in the EVF), if you haven't really worked with a recent EVF or live-view implementation then you should give it a try. It is not a viewfinder, but in some ways it provides some advantages. For instance being able to do a detail zoom to check focus without changing framing or any other settings.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
difference between hoya pro-1 HMC and pro-1 DMC (digital)? Spock Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 5 10-22-2009 01:56 PM
How did you become a pro / semi-pro photographer? Light_Horseman Photographic Industry and Professionals 12 09-26-2009 08:29 PM
Pentax PRO Feature that a Pro Photog couldn't find in CaNikon! HermanLee Pentax DSLR Discussion 16 05-03-2009 09:36 AM
Client Etiquette, Question for the semi-Pro/Pro Photographers metalfab Photographic Technique 29 07-06-2008 07:04 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:47 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top