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01-05-2009, 08:27 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Leica sells sub-$1K P&S cameras. They're in both ends of the market - they just don't really have anything in the middle.
True... I was not thinking of P&S, but their M and newly announced S range.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Also, you should try the G1 in low light and see what you think about the EVF and live view. While it is certainly different (and I don't care for the "look" of the image in the EVF), if you haven't really worked with a recent EVF or live-view implementation then you should give it a try. It is not a viewfinder, but in some ways it provides some advantages. For instance being able to do a detail zoom to check focus without changing framing or any other settings.
I personally doubt the EVF of the G1 would be able to provide an image clean enoughto enable me to focus the lens, if ISO 25600 and f1.2 is to slow and not sensitive enough to produce a LV image at all.
I have worked with the D3 for the past year and it has a pretty decent LV feature (especially for slow work), so I have tried it, but as said, for low light landscape work and fast moving subjects it is just so far from being even remotely usable.
I guess the frame rate will eventually catch up on the latter.

Another thing not mentioned is the temperature range I work part of the year.
The LCD in pretty much any camera I have tried does not perform optimally after 4-5 hours in close to -40C, though the rest of the camera works perfectly, relying on LV or an EVF in situations where even a picture preview is demanding on the LCD is not going to work out too well.

Granted I work in some pretty rough conditions, but that is something I have little control over.

01-06-2009, 12:57 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
I've been asking myself the same question and have come up with one niche that might be worth 400,000 units a year at a profitable selling price. A very high resolution smaller body than the K20D that is highly sealed. Ideally a sensor based on the present K20D one but slightly larger. Added outdoor special features like GPS. A high res LCD able to give critical focus while on a tripod. The AF would have to be upgraded but not by very much. It would be marketed as a compact unit that rivals FF in average light for resolution, 16-18MP. It would sell for more than the D90 types but less than a low end FF.

A down scale body much like the Panny G1. Get rid of the AA batteries on the K-M because of weight, Go to EV, weather seal it and reduce size. Limit the line to just the two units. The slogan is "Compact, rugged, and high res"

The question is has Hoya cut enough fat so Pentax can be profitable at this small a market share.
I think along the same line, although I would go the extra mile and go FF with dedicated limited pancake primes.... I would buy one of those!

In fact, even if they don't go FF, I'll probably get what Pentax does best (ie K20D body with limited primes) to replace my 30D and keep my 5D + zooms.
01-06-2009, 01:32 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Duplo Quote
I personally doubt the EVF of the G1 would be able to provide an image clean enoughto enable me to focus the lens, if ISO 25600 and f1.2 is to slow and not sensitive enough to produce a LV image at all.
I have worked with the D3 for the past year and it has a pretty decent LV feature (especially for slow work), so I have tried it, but as said, for low light landscape work and fast moving subjects it is just so far from being even remotely usable.
I guess the frame rate will eventually catch up on the latter.

Another thing not mentioned is the temperature range I work part of the year.
The LCD in pretty much any camera I have tried does not perform optimally after 4-5 hours in close to -40C, though the rest of the camera works perfectly, relying on LV or an EVF in situations where even a picture preview is demanding on the LCD is not going to work out too well.

Granted I work in some pretty rough conditions, but that is something I have little control over.
Thanks for your thoughts on EVF, Live-View, and analog view finder. It is exactly in those rough / borderline conditions that I would like to know how my gear performs.

I hope it is ok that I ask; what are your thoughts on the value between D3 and D700 ? are there some areas where you prefer your D3 to just a D700 ?
(As I understand it, there is a bit smaller VF coverage on D700, slower burst rate, smaller battery, and shorter shutter lifetime).

thanks
01-06-2009, 02:54 AM   #109
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I'll think when Pentax makes a some better K20D and then triple the price that it is seen in the market as a pro-camera...

01-06-2009, 08:29 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by GaryM Quote
I agree with this. When I show advanced or pro shooters my DA Limiteds, they are almost always impressed and interested. And very rarely had they even known about these lenses. The prime market definitely is a niche market, but at least it's a niche that Pentax can own if they push their marketing in that direction. Right now they're kind of lost in the shuffle, and being different is not worth a lot if nobody knows about it. The K2000 looks awesome with the DA40 on it, and a small but "pro" featured body matched with a killer prime lineup would be a unique, stand-out product.
I completely agree with this, the limited primes is what Pentax currently does best and it brought quite a few new customers to Pentax.

If I were to buy a Pentax setup again, I would most certainly get a K20 with those primes.


Thus also goes to show that Pentax can sell expensive items and make good profit from it, if they market them right.

After all, if I had bought a setup in june with K20D + 21 + 40 +70 ltd, it would have cost me €999 + €450 + €320 + €525 = €2294, almost exactly what I paid for the 5D+24-105L.

To get the same range coverage as the 24-105, I would have to add the future 15f4 to the mix and maybe buy the 35f2.8 instead of the 21+40 to keep the cost down but this would still lead close to a €2000 bill, even when taking into account the discounted K20D price we can get now...
01-06-2009, 11:01 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
I think along the same line, although I would go the extra mile and go FF with dedicated limited pancake primes.... I would buy one of those!
Two problems with going FF. I don't think they could get it into a body smaller than the K20D and maintain SR. For the target market the body size is more important than FF. It is my understanding an APS-H or smaller sensor is a great deal less expensive to make than a FF one. I think the K20D sensor is so close to what this niche market needs the extra cost of a FF one just reduces profitability.

A second line of DA primes that are weather sealed would really set the tone of the market they want.
01-06-2009, 01:10 PM   #112
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Ok I'll chime in too!
This is a complete guess here... but photojournalists work for media outlets that have photographic departments which invest in cameras and lens collections, and I THINK alot of the staff photographers have this equipment at their disposal. I wonder how many of the photojournalists actually own all that equipment?? I dunno... like i said, just guessing.
But going with that thought (if its true) then Pentax would need to convince media outlets to invest in a new stock of lens for their photographers to have at their disposal.
It wouldn't make sense for pro STAFF photographers (pro freelancers is a different story) to buy a pro Pentax model when they have access to "renting" or "borrowing" expensive lenses from the media outlet in Canon and Nikon glass.
I know N Geographic for one has a huge collection of Canon and Nikon glass for its photographers to use... some lenses most individuals would not usually buy on there own.
Pro Pentax would need to cut a deal with photo departments in media to make sure its worthwhile for their staffers to buy a new pro Pentax body by having a collection lenses to borrow on assignments.
Again.... I'm just thinking off the cuff here... "pro" can tend to be a fluidic term.
01-06-2009, 02:35 PM   #113
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Samsung pro

If it comes a FF it be Samsung that produce the camera, "Samsung have plans"(Samsung sensor) as it stood in a English Photomagazine. Of course Pentax are involved in the hypothetical project but it´s Samsung that are more interested in FF and they had the money to take a economic lost. And if it comes it have a little smaller sensor than 24X36, 22X33mm or so, because that some more DA lenses can fit.

Or we see a Pentax/Samsung K645D with a Samsung sensor, not so fast as Nikon/Canons most expensive cameras but at the same price.

01-06-2009, 03:29 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bophoto Quote
If it comes a FF it be Samsung that produce the camera, "Samsung have plans"(Samsung sensor) as it stood in a English Photomagazine. Of course Pentax are involved in the hypothetical project but it´s Samsung that are more interested in FF and they had the money to take a economic lost. And if it comes it have a little smaller sensor than 24X36, 22X33mm or so, because that some more DA lenses can fit..
Seems highly unlikely as Samsung have never made a DSLR and almost certainly won't start by making an expensive FF one in a declining market.
Samsungs interest in this is as a sensor manufacturer; not a camera manufacturer.
01-06-2009, 04:13 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by Duplo Quote
I personally doubt the EVF of the G1 would be able to provide an image clean enoughto enable me to focus the lens, if ISO 25600 and f1.2 is to slow and not sensitive enough to produce a LV image at all.
well they have night vision googles for a reason... may be it is not in G1, but certainly electronics can see where you will not be able even w/ f0.0 if you will make a IR filter that can be moved in/out of the way or may be you can control IR sensivity of the cells on matrix somehow
01-06-2009, 06:00 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
I was answering a previous poster saying that Canon and Nikon high-end models are sold at a loss: this is just not true.

Now, I agree that what is good for Canon or Nikon might not be for Pentax because of their very limited market penetration, lack of reputation (the "pro" one I mean) and shallower pockets.

Of course there is no way Pentax could do for 1500$ what others are selling 2500$ and if they can't sell 1000$ models, you are probably right that they won't be able to sell 2000$ ones.

Hence leading to small market shares, hence leading to shallow pockets, hence leading to no high end models, and so on and so forth... survival at best as a niche player but of what niche?

Seriously, I am asking once more: what does Pentax have that others don't? What would be their niche? Their haven from competition? I am just trying to see a way to go from Pentax from where they stand now...
Believe me FF cameras are not selling at much of a profit right now, nor are they vastly cheaper IMO. The 5D2 intro price is the same as the 5D's intro price, and the D3x is the same as the 1Ds mk1. Most of these top end cams are bought by news agencies anyway, only a proportion are bought by individuals and in many cases they are practically given away for promotional purposes. The competition for hearts and pockets in the pro arena is fierce and not a good place to be third (sorry Sony).

I think the Hoya announcement was totally clear. Pentax have a certain kind of user in mind, and its not the general user thats impressed with big shiney stuff, bells and whistles or spec sheet measurebating.

Pentax are after the amateur market, and whereas there are a few hardy souls who ALWAYS have the best gear (but no wife, no kids and live with mum) there are hundreds of times more who dont have the disposable income BUT are passionate about photography and want a camera that gives pro cameras features (ruggedness) and IQ but at 20% of the price even if they dont get all the bells and whistles. These were the customers Pentax captured with the old K1000 - a camera that cost little but which would survive deserts and mountains and come back for more.

The niche is knowledgable adventurous photographers who want to take high IQ pictures when they are out jogging, walking, climbing, trakking, rafting, gliding, travelling, caving, biking..... They dont have money to burn on a 1DS but also dont want some peice of chest wig jewelry that will fail under a mild summer shower.

First they have to build them then they have to market them. The money they save by staying out of the FF race will enable them to develop the existing technology to the point where APSC is close enough.

Signs are good. After all the 5D2 has lower noise than the 5D and the A900 has the same DR in RAW as the D700 (and more than the S5). So small pixels are not an issue if you get the A/D stage and image processing parts right too. Translate that into an advanced APSC design and all you get from FF for your extra $2000 is 1 extra print size or 1 stop of noise above ISO1600....but not both.

But equally critical are QC and competitive AF. The rest is far less important IMO for this type of camera.
01-06-2009, 06:47 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bophoto Quote
If . . . And if it comes it have a little smaller sensor than 24X36, 22X33mm or so, because that some more DA lenses can fit.
. . .
That would be something like an APS-H sensor.
01-06-2009, 09:59 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote

Pentax are after the amateur market, and whereas there are a few hardy souls who ALWAYS have the best gear (but no wife, no kids and live with mum) there are hundreds of times more who dont have the disposable income BUT are passionate about photography and want a camera that gives pro cameras features (ruggedness) and IQ but at 20% of the price even if they dont get all the bells and whistles. These were the customers Pentax captured with the old K1000 - a camera that cost little but which would survive deserts and mountains and come back for more.
This is actually what I feel is what Pentax can offer. Cameras that don't shun the fact that they are tools. Tools that will wield results far more convincing then bloated specs. Quality is the only viable road to success that an entusiast can really advocate and I actually think Pentax is going in the right direction overall.

I don't think we should obsess so much about the market. After all: most of us are taking photo's for other motives then making money.
01-07-2009, 12:38 AM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Believe me FF cameras are not selling at much of a profit right now, nor are they vastly cheaper IMO. The 5D2 intro price is the same as the 5D's intro price, and the D3x is the same as the 1Ds mk1. Most of these top end cams are bought by news agencies anyway, only a proportion are bought by individuals and in many cases they are practically given away for promotional purposes. The competition for hearts and pockets in the pro arena is fierce and not a good place to be third (sorry Sony).

I think the Hoya announcement was totally clear. Pentax have a certain kind of user in mind, and its not the general user thats impressed with big shiney stuff, bells and whistles or spec sheet measurebating.

Pentax are after the amateur market, and whereas there are a few hardy souls who ALWAYS have the best gear (but no wife, no kids and live with mum) there are hundreds of times more who dont have the disposable income BUT are passionate about photography and want a camera that gives pro cameras features (ruggedness) and IQ but at 20% of the price even if they dont get all the bells and whistles. These were the customers Pentax captured with the old K1000 - a camera that cost little but which would survive deserts and mountains and come back for more.

The niche is knowledgable adventurous photographers who want to take high IQ pictures when they are out jogging, walking, climbing, trakking, rafting, gliding, travelling, caving, biking..... They dont have money to burn on a 1DS but also dont want some peice of chest wig jewelry that will fail under a mild summer shower.

First they have to build them then they have to market them. The money they save by staying out of the FF race will enable them to develop the existing technology to the point where APSC is close enough.

Signs are good. After all the 5D2 has lower noise than the 5D and the A900 has the same DR in RAW as the D700 (and more than the S5). So small pixels are not an issue if you get the A/D stage and image processing parts right too. Translate that into an advanced APSC design and all you get from FF for your extra $2000 is 1 extra print size or 1 stop of noise above ISO1600....but not both.

But equally critical are QC and competitive AF. The rest is far less important IMO for this type of camera.
We're certainly not talking about Pentax releasing a 1Ds/D3x type camera (these are not only a FF sensor but are evidently priced outrageously anyway), but a 5D/5DII equivalent would be an option IMO and not that much more expensive than a D300 equivalent in APS-C.

First a small fact check, 5D was introduced at 3699€, the 5DII at 2500€: hardly the same price. The K30D will face sub-2000$ FF DSLRs (D700/5DMkII, not even counting the residual 5Ds that will sell under 1500$) in 2009 when it will come out.

Are you willing to bet that the price difference between the K30 (if there is such a camera) and the D700/5DMkII will be the mythical 2000$? Are they going to sell it for less than 100$ (best price for D700 now is 2100$)?

Then I won't be arguing about the profitability of the 1D/D3-like cameras, once again, these are not the cameras we are talking about as a possible upgrade for Pentax.
I don't know where you get your sources but all I can say is that Canon and Nikon are not charitable enterprise giving away cameras at no profit just for the good publicity.

I am not saying that you are wrong about the way Pentax sees it and I sure hope they manage to give FF IQ in an APS-C package but as you said it, it's just not very likely: FF will always keep an advantage, either in resolution, or in noise (but maybe in both as it is now the case), and that's precisely why I am advocating it for Pentax: IQ has always been their primary goal, we certainly agree on that.

Pentax is no longer Pentax, they are now Hoya and teamed up with Samsung, a much much bigger company than Nikon or Canon who could certainly produce a FF sensor at a reasonable cost.

Look at what they've done with the K20 sensor for their first APS-C sensor: not bad for a start!

I guess we'll see soon enough which way they're heading but in the meantime, I'll still get my fingers crossed for a nice FF with the Pentax touch!
01-07-2009, 01:47 AM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote

Pentax is no longer Pentax, they are now Hoya and teamed up with Samsung, a much much bigger company than Nikon or Canon who could certainly produce a FF sensor at a reasonable cost.
Well Pentax may not hang with Samsung for ever... At least, what I heard was heavily pointing to a change of strategy as far as Pentax-Samsung current deal.

We'll see.
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