[pblogic]

From a film perspective I can't think of anything more exciting than a fresh, modern K1000. No auto focus, no nonsense and extra doo dads. No auto exposure or priority modes. Pure, manual camera. A crisp clear viewfinder with split prism focusing. Not a lot different in look or design. Just cleaned up, more precise components etc. That's my film dream, I hope someday this project leads to that. All I would ever want or need out of a film camera.

[ehrwien]

I wonder how complicated the whole mechanism - moving the lever and with it advancing the film and cocking the shutter - must be, so that today's engineers thought they could remove some parts, only for former engineers laughing at them because the parts they wanted to remove were so important.

Fully mechanical SLRs are a work of art to me.

I fear even the first compact camera may become too expensive - for my personal taste and for it to become a success for Pentax. I hope I'm wrong and it will still be kind of affordable. I would like to support the project by getting one when it's available.

[jersey]

Talking for engineering PoV those parts were probably not the most important for proper action, but we're not so essential parts that made the whole action smoother, more robust or something like this and were added after decades of experience and experimenting. Without them it would work properly too, but will not be "complete" mechanism. More like early era winders.

It is like car engine. Compare that from Fort T with any modern turbo with direct injection.

[biz-engineer]

How do you manage to put an AF sensor in a film compact camera and make it work?

Using a ToF laser rangefinder, in a separate box outside the camera.

---------- Post added 13-05-23 at 12:32 ----------

Fully mechanical SLRs are a work of art to me.

Depends on background. For electronics engineers, mechanical engineering is a daunting task, but the mechanical engineer who design mechanical watches will find it easy to make a film camera. Some mechanical engineers are geniuses.

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Last edited by biz-engineer; 05-13-2023 at 03:32 AM.

[Mistral75]

Using a ToF laser rangefinder, in a separate box outside the camera.

Of course, however @RobA_Oz's point was "manual focus with their existing focus confirmation system" (emphasis added), "their" being Ricoh Imaging's and therefore not including ToF laser rangefinder, hence my question.

Later on @RobA_Oz further explained that he was thinking of using an existing SLR AF module with "a small mirror that flips out of the way when the shutter is actuated." He also mentioned some of the limits of such a device: "there may not be the space to do that in a compact camera, depending on the space between the lens and the shutter. This assumes it will be a focal-plane shutter, of course. If it uses an in-lens leaf shutter, such a scheme wouldn’t be possible."

[reh321]

I have a Minox 35EL that’s probably around the same size, but I’d regard those as smaller than what I’d call “compact”.

If I understand correctly, the Minox “35EL” expects the user to manually focus, but provides no assistance? He must either use a sufficiently small aperture for the subject to be within the DOF, actually measure the distance, or be really good at estimating distances?

[madison_wi_gal]

The fact that this project has an an an English landing page and all materials translated into English means that it will be international. When Pentax does something that is only for Japan, they don’t put the information up in English.

Disagree. The K-1 II J Limited video

You Tube

You Tube

has English titles. They will NOT sell one to me.

[biz-engineer]

has English titles. They will NOT sell one to me.

Whether sold only in Japan only or worldwide has something to do with either scarcity, or limiting costs of retail if selling quantities aren't large enough to pay for the cost of building up inventory. Then there is the "build-to-order" solution, that some brands have implemented, you order your camera online or at your camera shop, and you receive it two to six months later.

[madison_wi_gal]

Whether sold only in Japan only or worldwide has something to do with either scarcity, or limiting costs of retail if selling quantities aren't large enough to pay for the cost of building up inventory. Then there is the "build-to-order" solution, that some brands have implemented, you order your camera online or at your camera shop, and you receive it two to six months later.

Yes, this is build to order, but my friend visiting Japan right now was essentially told by 2 camera stores (large ones) that they would not sell it to him and have it shipped to a local Japanese address (I had arranged for the brother of a colleague to take delivery of it and then send to me). So even if *I* went to Japan with a wad of cash, I can't buy it as myself.

The brother of my colleague CAN, but I don't know him and that is a large $ to trust a stranger (to me).

[biz-engineer]

Yes, this is build to order, but my friend visiting Japan right now was essentially told by 2 camera stores (large ones) that they would not sell it to him and have it shipped to a local Japanese address (I had arranged for the brother of a colleague to take delivery of it and then send to me). So even if *I* went to Japan with a wad of cash, I can't buy it as myself.

Rules are being defined by top people, and then subordinates must follow and apply rules without understanding why the rules are in place, and they will apply the rules no matter what, no matter how long you try to explain. That is why sometimes it is necessary to talk to the top people in order to get intelligent things done.

[thibs]

From a film perspective I can't think of anything more exciting than a fresh, modern K1000. No auto focus, no nonsense and extra doo dads. No auto exposure or priority modes. Pure, manual camera. A crisp clear viewfinder with split prism focusing. Not a lot different in look or design. Just cleaned up, more precise components etc. That's my film dream, I hope someday this project leads to that. All I would ever want or need out of a film camera.

I'd rather settle for an MX.

[RobA_Oz]

If I understand correctly, the Minox “35EL” expects the user to manually focus, but provides no assistance? He must either use a sufficiently small aperture for the subject to be within the DOF, actually measure the distance, or be really good at estimating distances?

Correct. The EL used a zone focussing system. Other versions had a distance scale. They were products of the pre-AF era.

Correction: I misremembered the designation – mine is a 35AL, which is the zone-focussed version.

[RobA_Oz]

Of course, however @RobA_Oz's point was "manual focus with their existing focus confirmation system" (emphasis added), "their" being Ricoh Imaging's and therefore not including ToF laser rangefinder, hence my question.

Later on @RobA_Oz further explained that he was thinking of using an existing SLR AF module with "a small mirror that flips out of the way when the shutter is actuated." He also mentioned some of the limits of such a device: "there may not be the space to do that in a compact camera, depending on the space between the lens and the shutter. This assumes it will be a focal-plane shutter, of course. If it uses an in-lens leaf shutter, such a scheme wouldn’t be possible."

Thank you. Teasing out the details in this discussion leads me to think that such a system is probably more complex and expensive than is justifiable for a compact camera, particularly one that is probably intended to not attract premium pricing, whatever that means in today’s market. Lidar is possibly a better detection solution for a compact camera, as the technology is already being used in some smart phones, though I’m not sure if it’s used for camera focussing – if I remember correctly, it’s used for length measurement in my current iPhone.

If the Pentax camera doesn’t use AF, it does raise the question of an appropriate aperture for a manually-focussed lens, because zone-focussing systems tended to have fairly small maximum apertures. I daresay that all these things are being debated by the Ricoh team.

[TwoUptons]

Thank you. Teasing out the details in this discussion leads me to think that such a system is probably more complex and expensive than is justifiable for a compact camera, particularly one that is probably intended to not attract premium pricing, whatever that means in today’s market. Lidar is possibly a better detection solution for a compact camera, as the technology is already being used in some smart phones, though I’m not sure if it’s used for camera focussing – if I remember correctly, it’s used for length measurement in my current iPhone.

If the Pentax camera doesn’t use AF, it does raise the question of an appropriate aperture for a manually-focussed lens, because zone-focussing systems tended to have fairly small maximum apertures. I daresay that all these things are being debated by the Ricoh team.

I have some zone-focusers with f2.8 lenses...

I don't like focusing them at f2.8 unless it is something a long way away... but they are vastly better than "focus free"...

A f2.8 lens on a half-frame will do a bit better, but I think a 2.8 or slower lens would want a wide angle to go with to help the focus along...

- Eric

[madison_wi_gal]

Rules are being defined by top people, and then subordinates must follow and apply rules without understanding why the rules are in place, and they will apply the rules no matter what, no matter how long you try to explain. That is why sometimes it is necessary to talk to the top people in order to get intelligent things done.

I'd love to talk to TKO and have him send me a Viridian. It was his idea.