PMA 2009 rumors on Pentax

lol101 · 01-11-2009, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by Samsungian

If Pentax made a full frame camera available for $1,500 at PMA 09 in March I bet they'd sell a bunch of them too. However my guess is for $1,500 in 2009 you'll be looking at the minor upgraded K20D launch price instead. I arrive at this number by looking at K10D start at $919.99 and K20D $1299.99.

I think the high K20D price at launch was warrated by the need to recoup a few years of R&D on the sensor.

I don't think they have completely covered these expenses now with just the K20 but if they re-use the K20's sensor in the K300 and put and upgraded version (4 channels?) in the K30, I think they will be able to keep the launch price at 1200€/$.

What they need now is to work on AF like they said they'd do last year.

Richard · 01-11-2009, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by rburgoss

As stated at PMA 2009 Preview Photography Bay | Digital Camera Reviews, News and Resources
Next year, we are planning to launch some three types, including minor design change versions, of single-lens reflex (SLR) cameras. With a desire to offer cameras which will demonstrate our advantages, as announced in the Photokina held in Germany, we will relaunch ourselves next year as a manufacturer of all-weather cameras which are strong outdoors, highly water-resistnat, splash-proof, and dustproof, small and light, easily portable and tough (durable).[/I]

Anyone care to speculate?

My first impression on reading this was from the "strong outdoors" quote. I think that that means high resolution in good light without worrying too much about the performance indoors at high ISO (most people believe that that's what flash is for).

I also think that "some three types, including minor design change versions, of single-lens reflex (SLR) cameras" could well mean 1 new SLR camera and 2 incremental updates.

Given the above and the "small and light, easily portable" quote, I think the only new camera will be a K-M Super, with better weatherproofing and a higher-resolution sensor. It's a feasible niche for Hoya to go for.

I was hoping for an APS-C K30D with improved autofocus and autoexposure, higher FPS and better high-ISO performance, but I'm not holding my breath.

Adnan EROL · 01-11-2009, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Asahiflex

I'm speaking for myself here... even with the same old AF and FPS...
...the bigger sensor would be the only reason to buy it, all else is not important.

You're not alone...
there are tons of Pentaxian and non-Pentaxian photographers who is buying or planning to buy C*non 5D or N*kon D700. And according the the poll almost half of the current pentax owners are ready to change their camera's sensor only.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/43883-full-frame-k20d-...ow-yes-no.html

noblepa · 01-11-2009, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Adnan EROL

You're not alone...
there are tons of Pentaxian and non-Pentaxian photographers who is buying or planning to buy C*non 5D or N*kon D700. And according the the poll almost half of the current pentax owners are ready to change their camera's sensor only.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/43883-full-frame-k20d-...ow-yes-no.html

Adnan, your survey shows that 53 percent of the MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM want a full-frame Pentax. While this is an interesting statistic, I'm not sure that it means that 53 percent of ALL Pentax owners want full-frame.

As much as we may not like to admit it, any survey of a forum, such as this, is almost by definition, skewed. It is skewed by the fact that these forums tend to be frequented by very serious amateurs and photographers who are semi-fanatical to the Pentax brand. We are not typical of the general camera-buying public.

I have owned Pentax cameras almost exclusively since 1967. During that time, I have been well aware that Pentax cameras were not as feature-rich as the best that Nikon could offer. If fact, that is why I bought my Spotmatic, instead of saving a little longer for a Nikon F. I decided that I didn't need the features of the Nikon F and didn't want to pay for features I wouldn't or couldn't use. I feel the same way today.

I couldn't care less about increasing the frames-per-second capacity of my K10D. I think that the more typical Pentax owner is like me; I seldom use machine-gun photography and, when I do, 3 fps is enough.

I think that Pentax has chosen their target market carefully, and produced cameras that appeal to that market. If they tried to compete, feature for feature, with Nikon and Canon, then Pentax cameras would cost as much as Nikon and Canon.

Besides, I think that everyone who is begging Pentax for a FF camera is drastically underestimating the development and support costs of such a camera, while at the same time, drastically overestimating the potential market, not to mention the fact that they would be shooting at a moving target. After all, Nikon, Canon and Sony are not going to stand still while Pentax attempts to penetrate a market that those three have mostly had to themselves.

I think that the biggest problem Pentax would have with a FF camera is not the camera itself. Not even the lenses. I don't care what anyone says, a FF camera is a pro camera. I know that there are non-professionals who own them, just as there were amatuers who owned Nikon F's. But, without a significant buy-in from the pro market, any FF camera is, IMHO, doomed. That buy-in means that there must be brick and morter stores (lots of them; not just a couple in New York) where a pro can walk in and walk out with any lens in the Pentax line, either purchased or rented. A pro must be able to get his/her camera repaired in 48 hours, at most, and have a loaner while it is being done. That kind of dealer support network doesn't exist for Pentax and would cost a fortune and take a long time to build. Heck, how many camera stores in your town even stock the K200D?

But, I could be wrong....

watchthewaves · 01-11-2009, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Richard

Given the above and the "small and light, easily portable" quote, I think the only new camera will be a K-M Super, with better weatherproofing and a higher-resolution sensor. It's a feasible niche for Hoya to go for.

As someone starting to explore the realms of DSLRs, a 2nd gen K-m with the K20D's sensor and weatherproofing would be something that I'd jump at. I just hope that there are many more like me out there and that Pentax has really identified this as the direction in which to go.

regken · 01-11-2009, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by lol101

I think the high K20D price at launch was warrated by the need to recoup a few years of R&D on the sensor.

95% of the time I agree with you but not this time. You should NEVER price to cost. You MUST price to market. The initial price of the K20D was just another example of Pentax marketing not having a clue. I keep hoping Hoya will step in and get them on the right track.

raider · 01-11-2009, 08:26 PM

what would be the anticipated price of k30D when it is released?

Kunzite · 01-12-2009, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by noblepa

Adnan, your survey shows that 53 percent of the MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM want a full-frame Pentax. While this is an interesting statistic, I'm not sure that it means that 53 percent of ALL Pentax owners want full-frame.

I guess there is a difference between "a full frame camera, that would be nice, right?" and "Pentax can launch a FF camera for 2500-3000$. Would you buy it?"
And I have my doubts that 53% from us would really buy a FF camera.

drewdlephone · 01-12-2009, 02:04 AM

Originally posted by regken

95% of the time I agree with you but not this time. You should NEVER price to cost. You MUST price to market. The initial price of the K20D was just another example of Pentax marketing not having a clue. I keep hoping Hoya will step in and get them on the right track.

Companies who do this are rapidly losing money. If a business is to be a business and not a charity, how do you expect companies to "price to market" when they can't turn a profit on anything they sell? Do you expect every company to have the collateral and backing to indebt themselves to the hilt, simply to hope that they can pull themselves out of the mire, battle scarred and yet still in business? This concept is the reason why we're mired in the midst of a global recession. Companies with barely enough raw cash to cover their loans and assets, borrowing money like it's going out of fashion simply to keep ahead of the other companies, and "win" the race so to speak. The only way to maintain that philosophy is to keep people buying, and when they stop, companies go with them. GM is a good example of this. They managed to turn in a loss on the operating expenses for multiple fiscal years in the middle of one of the hottest economic bubbles of the last twenty years. And all because they priced themselves into a corner and sold their vehicles at fire-sale discounts to lure their customers, instead of building a proper product and pricing it accordingly, winning their market share with the product itself, like Asian automakers spent the last 30 years doing. People didn't stop buying Hondas and Toyotas because they cost more than what GM was stamping out.

If Hoya does this to Pentax, you can kiss Pentax goodbye in three years. They simply won't have the backing or the cash to stick up a fight like that.

nostatic · 01-12-2009, 09:06 AM

Agreed. You don't price to market (for the long term), you build to a price.

janneman · 01-12-2009, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Richard

Given the above and the "small and light, easily portable" quote, I think the only new camera will be a K-M Super, with better weatherproofing and a higher-resolution sensor. It's a feasible niche for Hoya to go for.

I was hoping for an APS-C K30D with improved autofocus and autoexposure, higher FPS and better high-ISO performance, but I'm not holding my breath.

Such a KM-super would be on my wishlist. I doubt it will come soon as Pnetax knows it will upset many who have already bought a KM-D would have waited ifthey knew a sealed one would be coming.
K300D and K30D?? Yes they will come, but probably not soon, more end of year. K20D is less than a year old and I do not think a K30D/K300D will come within 16 months of release of its predecessor.

Yes, this means we may not see a single dslr at PMA....
What to expect? Lens news....

regken · 01-12-2009, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by drewdlephone

If Hoya does this to Pentax, you can kiss Pentax goodbye in three years. They simply won't have the backing or the cash to stick up a fight like that.

If the customer you are trying to appeal to is looking at a Nikon D90 you can't price your unit higher unless it has some unique features. As a matter of fact if the units spec out close to each other you will have to be lower than the Nikon unit because of brand recognition.

If you can't be profitable at the price the market has set don't produce that model. This is why I feel Pentax needs to become a niche producer. If your product appeals to a specific type of user and preforms better at that type of photography you can set the price regardless of what other units are selling for.

klika · 01-12-2009, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by drewdlephone

Companies who do this are rapidly losing money. If a business is to be a business and not a charity, how do you expect companies to "price to market" when they can't turn a profit on anything they sell?

Well, how do you expect Pentax to turn some profit, for example, with DA17-70, remember the lens was initially $600 , compared to Sigma 17-70, double the price. They can turn profit for sure in case they sell it in large quantities....... but the question is, who is gonna buy it for that price?
Also, DA 60-250 is supposed to be $1400!!! Who is gonna buy it? Not me for sure........

regken · 01-12-2009, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by nostatic

Agreed. You don't price to market (for the long term), you build to a price.

Building to price is the same as pricing to market. Build to price forces you to equal or surpass what is in the market at that price point.

thibs · 01-12-2009, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by klika

Well, how do you expect Pentax to turn some profit, for example, with DA17-70, remember the lens was initially $600 , compared to Sigma 17-70, double the price. They can turn profit for sure in case they sell it in large quantities....... but the question is, who is gonna buy it for that price?
Also, DA 60-250 is supposed to be $1400!!! Who is gonna buy it? Not me for sure........

Comparing prices to Sigma is completely flawed IMO.

01-11-2009, 07:49 PM	#184
noblepa Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bay Village, Ohio USA Posts: 1,142	Full Frame Survey Originally posted by Adnan EROL You're not alone... there are tons of Pentaxian and non-Pentaxian photographers who is buying or planning to buy Cnon 5D or Nkon D700. And according the the poll almost half of the current pentax owners are ready to change their camera's sensor only. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/43883-full-frame-k20d-...ow-yes-no.html Adnan, your survey shows that 53 percent of the MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM want a full-frame Pentax. While this is an interesting statistic, I'm not sure that it means that 53 percent of ALL Pentax owners want full-frame. As much as we may not like to admit it, any survey of a forum, such as this, is almost by definition, skewed. It is skewed by the fact that these forums tend to be frequented by very serious amateurs and photographers who are semi-fanatical to the Pentax brand. We are not typical of the general camera-buying public. I have owned Pentax cameras almost exclusively since 1967. During that time, I have been well aware that Pentax cameras were not as feature-rich as the best that Nikon could offer. If fact, that is why I bought my Spotmatic, instead of saving a little longer for a Nikon F. I decided that I didn't need the features of the Nikon F and didn't want to pay for features I wouldn't or couldn't use. I feel the same way today. I couldn't care less about increasing the frames-per-second capacity of my K10D. I think that the more typical Pentax owner is like me; I seldom use machine-gun photography and, when I do, 3 fps is enough. I think that Pentax has chosen their target market carefully, and produced cameras that appeal to that market. If they tried to compete, feature for feature, with Nikon and Canon, then Pentax cameras would cost as much as Nikon and Canon. Besides, I think that everyone who is begging Pentax for a FF camera is drastically underestimating the development and support costs of such a camera, while at the same time, drastically overestimating the potential market, not to mention the fact that they would be shooting at a moving target. After all, Nikon, Canon and Sony are not going to stand still while Pentax attempts to penetrate a market that those three have mostly had to themselves. I think that the biggest problem Pentax would have with a FF camera is not the camera itself. Not even the lenses. I don't care what anyone says, a FF camera is a pro camera. I know that there are non-professionals who own them, just as there were amatuers who owned Nikon F's. But, without a significant buy-in from the pro market, any FF camera is, IMHO, doomed. That buy-in means that there must be brick and morter stores (lots of them; not just a couple in New York) where a pro can walk in and walk out with any lens in the Pentax line, either purchased or rented. A pro must be able to get his/her camera repaired in 48 hours, at most, and have a loaner while it is being done. That kind of dealer support network doesn't exist for Pentax and would cost a fortune and take a long time to build. Heck, how many camera stores in your town even stock the K200D? But, I could be wrong....

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01-11-2009, 09:00 AM	#181
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	Originally posted by Samsungian If Pentax made a full frame camera available for $1,500 at PMA 09 in March I bet they'd sell a bunch of them too. However my guess is for $1,500 in 2009 you'll be looking at the minor upgraded K20D launch price instead. I arrive at this number by looking at K10D start at $919.99 and K20D $1299.99. I think the high K20D price at launch was warrated by the need to recoup a few years of R&D on the sensor. I don't think they have completely covered these expenses now with just the K20 but if they re-use the K20's sensor in the K300 and put and upgraded version (4 channels?) in the K30, I think they will be able to keep the launch price at 1200€/$. What they need now is to work on AF like they said they'd do last year.

01-11-2009, 10:18 AM	#182
Richard Inactive Account Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Shrewsbury, England Posts: 10	Originally posted by rburgoss As stated at PMA 2009 Preview Photography Bay \| Digital Camera Reviews, News and Resources Next year, we are planning to launch some three types, including minor design change versions, of single-lens reflex (SLR) cameras. With a desire to offer cameras which will demonstrate our advantages, as announced in the Photokina held in Germany, we will relaunch ourselves next year as a manufacturer of all-weather cameras which are strong outdoors, highly water-resistnat, splash-proof, and dustproof, small and light, easily portable and tough (durable).[/I] Anyone care to speculate? My first impression on reading this was from the "strong outdoors" quote. I think that that means high resolution in good light without worrying too much about the performance indoors at high ISO (most people believe that that's what flash is for). I also think that "some three types, including minor design change versions, of single-lens reflex (SLR) cameras" could well mean 1 new SLR camera and 2 incremental updates. Given the above and the "small and light, easily portable" quote, I think the only new camera will be a K-M Super, with better weatherproofing and a higher-resolution sensor. It's a feasible niche for Hoya to go for. I was hoping for an APS-C K30D with improved autofocus and autoexposure, higher FPS and better high-ISO performance, but I'm not holding my breath.

01-11-2009, 02:07 PM	#183
Adnan EROL Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 120	Originally posted by Asahiflex I'm speaking for myself here... even with the same old AF and FPS... ...the bigger sensor would be the only reason to buy it, all else is not important. You're not alone... there are tons of Pentaxian and non-Pentaxian photographers who is buying or planning to buy Cnon 5D or Nkon D700. And according the the poll almost half of the current pentax owners are ready to change their camera's sensor only. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/43883-full-frame-k20d-...ow-yes-no.html

01-11-2009, 08:09 PM	#185
watchthewaves Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 14	Originally posted by Richard Given the above and the "small and light, easily portable" quote, I think the only new camera will be a K-M Super, with better weatherproofing and a higher-resolution sensor. It's a feasible niche for Hoya to go for. As someone starting to explore the realms of DSLRs, a 2nd gen K-m with the K20D's sensor and weatherproofing would be something that I'd jump at. I just hope that there are many more like me out there and that Pentax has really identified this as the direction in which to go.

01-11-2009, 08:16 PM	#186
regken Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangor, Maine Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,377	Originally posted by lol101 I think the high K20D price at launch was warrated by the need to recoup a few years of R&D on the sensor. 95% of the time I agree with you but not this time. You should NEVER price to cost. You MUST price to market. The initial price of the K20D was just another example of Pentax marketing not having a clue. I keep hoping Hoya will step in and get them on the right track.

01-11-2009, 08:26 PM	#187
raider Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Perth, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,989	what would be the anticipated price of k30D when it is released?

01-12-2009, 01:47 AM	#188
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by noblepa Adnan, your survey shows that 53 percent of the MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM want a full-frame Pentax. While this is an interesting statistic, I'm not sure that it means that 53 percent of ALL Pentax owners want full-frame. I guess there is a difference between "a full frame camera, that would be nice, right?" and "Pentax can launch a FF camera for 2500-3000$. Would you buy it?" And I have my doubts that 53% from us would really buy a FF camera.

01-12-2009, 02:04 AM	#189
drewdlephone Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Nanaimo, BC Posts: 261	Originally posted by regken 95% of the time I agree with you but not this time. You should NEVER price to cost. You MUST price to market. The initial price of the K20D was just another example of Pentax marketing not having a clue. I keep hoping Hoya will step in and get them on the right track. Companies who do this are rapidly losing money. If a business is to be a business and not a charity, how do you expect companies to "price to market" when they can't turn a profit on anything they sell? Do you expect every company to have the collateral and backing to indebt themselves to the hilt, simply to hope that they can pull themselves out of the mire, battle scarred and yet still in business? This concept is the reason why we're mired in the midst of a global recession. Companies with barely enough raw cash to cover their loans and assets, borrowing money like it's going out of fashion simply to keep ahead of the other companies, and "win" the race so to speak. The only way to maintain that philosophy is to keep people buying, and when they stop, companies go with them. GM is a good example of this. They managed to turn in a loss on the operating expenses for multiple fiscal years in the middle of one of the hottest economic bubbles of the last twenty years. And all because they priced themselves into a corner and sold their vehicles at fire-sale discounts to lure their customers, instead of building a proper product and pricing it accordingly, winning their market share with the product itself, like Asian automakers spent the last 30 years doing. People didn't stop buying Hondas and Toyotas because they cost more than what GM was stamping out. If Hoya does this to Pentax, you can kiss Pentax goodbye in three years. They simply won't have the backing or the cash to stick up a fight like that.

01-12-2009, 09:06 AM	#190
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Agreed. You don't price to market (for the long term), you build to a price.

01-12-2009, 09:32 AM	#191
janneman Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 908	Originally posted by Richard Given the above and the "small and light, easily portable" quote, I think the only new camera will be a K-M Super, with better weatherproofing and a higher-resolution sensor. It's a feasible niche for Hoya to go for. I was hoping for an APS-C K30D with improved autofocus and autoexposure, higher FPS and better high-ISO performance, but I'm not holding my breath. Such a KM-super would be on my wishlist. I doubt it will come soon as Pnetax knows it will upset many who have already bought a KM-D would have waited ifthey knew a sealed one would be coming. K300D and K30D?? Yes they will come, but probably not soon, more end of year. K20D is less than a year old and I do not think a K30D/K300D will come within 16 months of release of its predecessor. Yes, this means we may not see a single dslr at PMA.... What to expect? Lens news....

01-12-2009, 10:01 AM	#192
regken Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangor, Maine Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,377	Originally posted by drewdlephone If Hoya does this to Pentax, you can kiss Pentax goodbye in three years. They simply won't have the backing or the cash to stick up a fight like that. If the customer you are trying to appeal to is looking at a Nikon D90 you can't price your unit higher unless it has some unique features. As a matter of fact if the units spec out close to each other you will have to be lower than the Nikon unit because of brand recognition. If you can't be profitable at the price the market has set don't produce that model. This is why I feel Pentax needs to become a niche producer. If your product appeals to a specific type of user and preforms better at that type of photography you can set the price regardless of what other units are selling for.

01-12-2009, 10:04 AM	#193
klika Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 27	Originally posted by drewdlephone Companies who do this are rapidly losing money. If a business is to be a business and not a charity, how do you expect companies to "price to market" when they can't turn a profit on anything they sell? Well, how do you expect Pentax to turn some profit, for example, with DA17-70, remember the lens was initially $600 , compared to Sigma 17-70, double the price. They can turn profit for sure in case they sell it in large quantities....... but the question is, who is gonna buy it for that price? Also, DA 60-250 is supposed to be $1400!!! Who is gonna buy it? Not me for sure........

01-12-2009, 10:06 AM	#194
regken Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangor, Maine Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,377	Originally posted by nostatic Agreed. You don't price to market (for the long term), you build to a price. Building to price is the same as pricing to market. Build to price forces you to equal or surpass what is in the market at that price point.

01-12-2009, 10:17 AM	#195
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by klika Well, how do you expect Pentax to turn some profit, for example, with DA17-70, remember the lens was initially $600 , compared to Sigma 17-70, double the price. They can turn profit for sure in case they sell it in large quantities....... but the question is, who is gonna buy it for that price? Also, DA 60-250 is supposed to be $1400!!! Who is gonna buy it? Not me for sure........ Comparing prices to Sigma is completely flawed IMO.