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01-05-2009, 01:53 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Did you know you actually see the image stabilized in the viewfinder with Canon Image Stabilized lenses?

I spent $1,459 last spring on a brand new eos 70-200mm 2.8L IS which is less coin than a 10 year old FA 80-200mm 2.8 costs used.

I agree K20D with inbody shake reduction is cool but so is in lens IS.

Having two brand systems is eyeopening for me. I look foward to adding nikon this year to my bag to see if their 2008 screw drive af hunts like 2008 Pentax does or is more spot on & lighting fast like Canon's old 2005 technology is.
I don't need to see the image stabilized right in front of my eyes. I can do away with that. And I also am not looking to buy an FA 80-200mm 2.8. I can get a Tamron 70-200 2.8 for much less than both of those lenses. And the Tamron's gonna get stabilized, too, with my K200D.

I didn't get the in-body stabilization to look "cool". I got it for the more flexible use, being able to stabilize even the most humble of old lenses. Now if you can show me that in-lens IS can stabilize my other old lenses, then I might consider it.

I'm sure you have your own priorities why you choose to go multiple systems. Me, I'd rather get the best bang for the buck. Unlike you, I'm not as rich, nor do I make money out of my humble photography. Even $800 for a new lens gets me antsy. Of course, if you're gonna give me loads of money, sure, I'll try Nikon with you. After I get that FA 80-200 2.8, though.

01-05-2009, 02:00 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
Those numbers are unweighted though. One needs to weight the results with the average profile of the buyer......
I believe I said at least two or three times that the data in the chart is to be taken with a very large grain of salt. Please don't speak as though I presented them as the results of scientific research.
01-05-2009, 02:27 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
It might be nice to go the route most people take, being the safest bet and all, but I really don't appreciate the additional cost to get stabilization with lenses. Outside of the two basic zooms, every other lens with stabilization costs a whole lot more than their non-stabilized counterparts.

Having been spoiled with in-body stabilization, I'd rather go Sony or Olympus if Pentax goes belly-up, with the slight edge going to Olympus because it can accommodate my Pentax lenses via an adapter and because Sony lenses are *expensive*. The A900 looks pretty good, though.
Right.
If the E30 fixes the Oly DR issues, it becomes an option.
They pretty sharp lenses too....

- Bert
01-05-2009, 05:38 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by bymy141 Quote
Right.
If the E30 fixes the Oly DR issues, it becomes an option.
They pretty sharp lenses too....

- Bert
I had hopes that Oly might have included weather-sealing with the E30. Pity that they didn't, otherwise I might've been tempted by that camera.

I'm as intrigued as anyone else how Panasonic's new sensor would fare in Olympus' hands, though I'm not as keen with the E30 as I had been prior to the announcement.

Agreed about how the lenses are pretty sharp. It might rankle Canon and Nikon die-hards in this forum, but I do think Olympus knows how to do zooms better than those two.

01-05-2009, 06:16 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by bymy141 Quote
Right.
If the E30 fixes the Oly DR issues, it becomes an option.
They pretty sharp lenses too....

- Bert
Ooh boy Oly has probably the best zooms out there. Those things are fantastic. Much better than the Canon L's in my opinion and a pretty much like or a bit better than the latest Nikkors.

The reason I went to Pentax is for the primes. If I preferred zooms it's Oly for me.
01-05-2009, 08:43 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chwisch87 Quote
Pentax needs to realize that word of mouth isn't going to sell camera's alone. Subaru, which is another japanese niche producer is very similar to Pentax. Many of their parts are used across the line just like pentax does to save development and costs. Even though word of mouth is very good for subaru, you still need to market your cars. In car world you have the two giants Toyota and Honda and in the camera business you have Canon and Nikon. Subaru has been able to survive because it has brand imagine of a strong reliable AWD car though good marketing. Whether Pentax/Hoya likes it or not, they are just going to have to divert money into a marketing budget of some sort at least if they intend to survive. I think a reasonable goal with a good marketing campaign is 5% japanese marketshare by the end of the decade. Pentax cameras and equipment is good enough that could be done with relative ease. There are TONS of things Pentax could market ... for instance.

Pentax could point out with great success i think that Canon/Nikon sell their "pro" camera's at a loss and pass the expense down to the consumer level equipment with not only higher costs but also equipment that in many cases lacks features found in less expensive but feature packed cameras from Pentax such as weather sealed bodies. Because Pentax focuses on quality but affordable bodies/lenses without making having to cover the cost of pro level level cameras that loose money, not only will you get better imagines with pentax, you will also save money too.
Subaru is marketed very heavily in the North East US. And in some states where Subaru is a clear advantage it is completely dominated other Jap. car companies.
Try Vermont or Main or Even Upstate NY there's plenty of Subarus.
01-05-2009, 09:00 AM   #52
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From the info, it appears that the K20 and K10 are not part of the survey. While the home market is important, one of the top markets for Pentax, has developed to be Europe.
Canon and Nikon are struggling with their über Pro FF cams, which have a way high price. Sony made a massive decision on the A900, and now markets are in recession.
I think that Pentax is in one of the better positions, they have already restructured after the Hoya takeover, and have found a good platform, with clear APS-C dedication, and therefore cheaper lenses than FF ones.

K10 was a combination of Samsung and Pentax, and it did extremely well in Japan. Samsung products can also be bought in Japan.

If Pentax was selling 0.9 % K20, 0.8 % K10, 0.5 % K100 / K100 super, and 0.4 % K-m (which came late on 2008); then they would have 4.2 %, this would take them ahead of Oly. Olympus, a company that did fine in 2008.

I really don’t care for these FUD posts, but if people like to try and get afraid of their own shadow; then go ahead. Hopefully this will take the steam a bit of the crazy prices that used Pentax lenses have gone for; times have been wild. With the K10, Pentax was third in the important markets, (behind C&N), they’ve held back a bit while merging and the other third tier campanies have played catch-up. From the info out of Hoya, now Pentax is ready to again shake up the market, like they did with the K-DSLR series :
“With a desire to offer cameras which will demonstrate our advantages, as announced in the Photokina held in Germany, we will relaunch ourselves next year [2009] as a manufacturer of all-weather cameras which are strong outdoors, highly water-resistant, splash-proof, and dustproof, small and light, easily portable and tough (durable).”
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/43594-hoya-future-bens-impact.html

I think it is very exciting times ahead. Hoya / Pentax has already made the company lean and ready, they paused a bit, and made the transition, and from the sounds of it, are ready for some positive surprises in 2009. I’m looking forward to PMA and CES.


The info in this thread had been discussed before, but apparently a user felt that making yet another thread. I haven’t read through all the posts, but it seems the same old, same old. Pentax have been declared dead for the past 25-30 years, yet they always bring up new innovations like the MZ series, or the K10 DSLR. K10 swept the market for awards, and sold extremely well, to give Pentax the magic third place seat. Every merger requires focus and time, to get all stems rolling forward again.
But hopefully some of the fearful ones will leave, so that the extremely inflated prices for used glass, can get to a more sane level.
Pentax has been making a profit, and is ready for the new times to come. I can’t wait for the DA 15 limited, DA* 55/1.4, and some more tele options like DA* 400/4.

I’ll be more concerned the day Thom Hogan start to come with positive predictions for Pentax, he has been wrong in pretty much everything that he has been trying to predict.

Sony is in the hot spot, they really need the A900 to be a success, but it might get squeezed by the outstanding D700, and the new Eos 5DII. Not certain that many C&N users will make the switch. And in these times, it will not be the majority of A700 owners that will make the jump. So Sony needs to be making the money on the A200, A300, and A350; likely lower the price to sell more. They’ve tried to take on the two major players, in this day and age; that is not an easy task. And they've used a lot of money and energy on it. Pentax and Oly have found more clear ground, and found a profile to work from.

As Mike Johnston states, though the heart might like the Sony, the sense is to go for Nikon or Canon. And in these times, people really try to be wise in their choices :
“I had to ask myself the question two ways. First, if I were spending my own scarce, hard-earned money? That would probably tilt me towards the Nikon—better support, more mindshare, greater corporate stability (at least in the camera division—once burned, and all that), much better market penetration, probably more robust resale value—plus I'm seduced by the D700's lovely B&W abilities. But if somebody put all three cameras with their respective 35mm ƒ/2 lenses on a platter and invited me to take one, I don't think I could resist the siren call of the beautiful Sony. It's a bit of a head/heart split.”
The Online Photographer: Sony vs. Nikon vs. Canon



QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
2) Pentax assets are almost as big as those of the Hoya optical section and rougly 1/3 of the total Hoya assets! Wow! And those are probably the lest uncertain numbers here. How come? I had got the impression that Hoya was the hugh company buying the small company Pentax. OK, Hoya has much more employees, but in assets the difference is not so large.
Seems like what certain market sources were saying at that time : Pentax was a bargain. Big U.S. hedgefounds were interested, because if Pentax was up for grabs, then it was at a great price for what could be had.
01-05-2009, 09:07 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
In most stores in Japan, good luck to you finding a Pentax.

The simple fact is that makers pay retailers here for display space, and Pentax either doesn't have the money to compete, isn't willing to spend it, doesn't think it will work, or maybe something else.

I recently was looking at some data on kakaku.com and found that while Pentax may suck at sales they had two of the top five (I think it was) in the customer satisfaction rating.

Japanese consumers are some of the biggest "follow the leader" lemmings in the world. If Canon/Nikon are out front and that's what "everybody" has, then that is what "everybody" will buy. There has been lament over the past years about the number of stray dogs turning up in dog pounds......expensive pedigree dogs. Turned out into the cold by their owners because the fashion regarding the latest trendy breed of dog changed and they followed right along by throwing out the old dog and getting a new one.

You can look at the sales data in terms of what it means financially to the company, but it shouldn't be taken as any sort of barometer of how savvy consumers rate the products from the various makers, because if there is one thing Japanese consumers in general are not, it is savvy. The strongest trend here is 高けりゃいい (If it's expensive it must be good) and they will turn their noses up at and walk right past anything that is suspiciously cheap. Makers know that tendency full well and have for decades price-gouged the hell out of people in this country, knowing they wouldn't be satisfied paying less.

There was once a president of a chain electronic stores in Tokyo, Jounan Denki, who decided to do a little experiment in one of his stores. He told about it on television and the story went like this: He imported a lot of blue jeans from a maker in Vietnam, and put up two large display bins in one of his stores. On one bin was a sign proclaiming the jeans at 1,980 yen (about $10) and on the other a similar sign marked for 198 yen (about $2).

He reported that people rushed into the store, ran right past the 198 yen jeans, and fought each other over the 1,980 yen jeans; it was bedlam. Nobody even looked at the cheaper jeans.

The interviewer said, "Well, that was an interesting experiment, but not very realistic. After all, you can't really sell jeans at that price."

The president of the company shot back that not only were they the exact same blue jeans in both bins, but that even at 198 yen per pair he could turn a profit on them.....but that Japanese consumers wouldn't buy them at that price. Mark them up 1000% and people fight over them. Over the last quarter-century I've seen plenty of similar examples myself.

If Pentax wanted to increase their sales in Japan, the smartest thing they could do would be to double the prices.

EDIT:

Peter, Hyundai and Kia may be trying to sell cars in Japan, but they're not doing a very good job of it. I'm on the road half the day every day and I think I may have seen one Hyundai. I've seen a couple of defunct dealerships, though. They're having better luck with scooters such as from Kymco. You have to understand that the problems and mutual enmity between the Japanese and the Koreans runs very deep and is only recently beginning to show small signs of thawing. Japan occupied Korea from 1910 to 1945, treated them horribly, and brought great numbers of them to Japan for forced labor during the war. They and their descendants who are still here do not have citizenship, face discrimination, and need special permission to re-enter Japan (which is the only home the second and third generation have ever known) if they go on vacation. They are barred from many public service jobs, can't vote, and are sometimes even barred from tournament play on high school sports teams. The Korean side of the resentment is understandable. The Japanese side comes, I think, from the same way you start to feel toward a guy who loaned you money when you haven't paid him back yet.
Mike, thank you very much for these brief but very revealing and interesting insights! I am serious - I would like to read more of that!

Ben

01-05-2009, 09:22 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
From the info, it appears that the K20 and K10 are not part of the survey. While the home market is important, one of the top markets for Pentax, has developed to be Europe.
Canon and Nikon are struggling with their über Pro FF cams, which have a way high price. Sony made a massive decision on the A900, and now markets are in recession.
I think that Pentax is in one of the better positions, they have already restructured after the Hoya takeover, and have found a good platform, with clear APS-C dedication, and therefore cheaper lenses than FF ones....

Sune, I don't quote all of your message, as this is simply too long... But you should consider some simple things, too:

– Pentax marketing is awful to say the least. When I saw the first ads for the K10 here in Germany I did not understand, what they meant or aimed at. Must have bee a complete insider joke or something. Alas, it was the most nonsensical ad I had seen for quite a while. The current ads are only boring, but at least I can understand their message.
Despite that, even the typical consumer electronics discount stores sell Pentax gear... which supports your notion, that Pentax has a very dedicated followship.

- the Pentax product line is incomplete, to put it very friendly. There is no sight of a DA 400/4, which you envisage. By the way, exactly the lens I am longing for. But we won't get it anytime soon. There is also no sign for any other longer focal length, than the abominable 60-250 or the DA 300/4. I admit to have some problems understanding, why a company like Pentax, with obviously very tight r+d and production ressources markets three macro lenses, but does not have a 400mm or 500mm lens available. This is simply ignoring the markets.

- it is common knowledge, that camera manufacturers don't earn money with their pro-spec modells. That was the truth even in film days and widely known. Nevertheless pro modells serve an important purpose: to show the amateur photogs, the capabilities of a manufacturer, to inspire trust. Pentax has been lacking in this department since the release of the LX and accordingly lost market shares ever since.

We should be realistic: Pentax is a company as many others too. If they continue their somewhat strange policies they will vanish. I still can use my gear, when Pentax has passed away - and that's, what counts for me. If these people in Japan are too stupid to copy the market strategies of the more succesfull companies it is thier fault and the fate will follow soon.
If the release a superior body to my current K10and K20, I will buy it, if I need it. But I could add Nikon bodies to my gear as well, if need arises...

Ben
01-05-2009, 09:42 AM   #55
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Colorado Too

I bought my Subaru from USA #1 dealer here in Colorado in 2005.

Sweet cars & I always plan to own one since I'll never move from Colorado. BUT they are no longer built in Japan for USA market. Mine is all Japan made from 2005 but now they are constructed in Indiana.

Subaru is sold in select States. Not every State has a Subaru dealership or dealer repairs. I think their use of same body style for 3-4 years gives them an advantage. And with Turbo 5 or 6 speed fun fun fun to drive in & outside of winter.

QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
Subaru is marketed very heavily in the North East US. And in some states where Subaru is a clear advantage it is completely dominated other Jap. car companies.
Try Vermont or Main or Even Upstate NY there's plenty of Subarus.

Last edited by Samsungian; 01-05-2009 at 09:48 AM.
01-05-2009, 09:47 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote

Subaru is sold in select States. Not every State has a Subaru dealership or dealer repairs. I think their use of same body style for 3-4 years gives them an advantage. And with Turbo 5 or 6 speed fun fun fun to drive in & outside of winter.
Which states don't have Subaru dealerships?

Most manufacturers use the same body style for 3-4 years.
01-05-2009, 09:56 AM   #57
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All I have to say is market share doesn't mean squat unless you're turning a profit. Hoya, with all their different markets in glass (not just the camera business, but medical and others), likely has a much better balance sheet than Sony does at the moment. Last I read, market share or not, Sony was losing all kinds of money on their camera business, and most of it because of the Alpha platform. I'd like to see them stay in the market during a recession while they're leaking money like a sieve.

I agree that Pentax needs to get the word out, and they need a model one step up from the K20D. It's good to focus on the budget market, because I have no doubt that all these companies will be eating dinner tonight based on what they bring home from the consumer market. I've seen (and heard) lots of professionals moan about how they support so much of the business because they pay so much, but the cold reality there is for every pro or dedicated amateur buying a D700, at least a hundred D40/60/80 cameras are sold. High price or not, it's hard to argue with who's holding their leash.
01-05-2009, 10:24 AM   #58
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OK, now they are in all 50 states. Good To Know

Cool, good to know they are nationwide now

Let google be your genie:


Browse Subaru Dealers by State
Alabama Subaru Dealer
Alaska Subaru Dealer
Arizona Subaru Dealer
Arkansas Subaru Dealer
California Subaru Dealer
Colorado Subaru Dealer
Connecticut Subaru Dealer
Delaware Subaru Dealer
D.C. Subaru Dealer
Florida Subaru Dealer
Georgia Subaru Dealer
Hawaii Subaru Dealer
Idaho Subaru Dealer
Illinois Subaru Dealer
Indiana Subaru Dealer
Iowa Subaru Dealer
Kansas Subaru Dealer
Kentucky Subaru Dealer
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Maine Subaru Dealer
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Michigan Subaru Dealer
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Nevada Subaru Dealer
New Hampshire Subaru Dealer
New Jersey Subaru Dealer
New Mexico Subaru Dealer
New York Subaru Dealer
North Carolina Subaru Dealer
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Ohio Subaru Dealer
Oklahoma Subaru Dealer
Oregon Subaru Dealer
Pennsylvania Subaru Dealer
Rhode Island Subaru Dealer
South Carolina Subaru Dealer
South Dakota Subaru Dealer
Tennessee Subaru Dealer
Texas Subaru Dealer
Utah Subaru Dealer
Vermont Subaru Dealer
Virginia Subaru Dealer
Washington Subaru Dealer
Washington D.C. Subaru Dealer
West Virginia Subaru Dealer
Wisconsin Subaru Dealer
Wyoming Subaru Dealer

No time to google up identical sheetmetal for autos. I thought VW Bug, BMW Mini, various subaru models had identical sheet metal used over several years in common.

I'll begin shopping for a new truck this fall for next summer end of year clearances when the subaru is paid off so I'll look into this identical sheet metal used over several years info then, Thanks.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Which states don't have Subaru dealerships?

Most manufacturers use the same body style for 3-4 years.
01-05-2009, 02:10 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I bought my Subaru from USA #1 dealer here in Colorado in 2005.

Sweet cars & I always plan to own one since I'll never move from Colorado. BUT they are no longer built in Japan for USA market. Mine is all Japan made from 2005 but now they are constructed in Indiana.

Subaru is sold in select States. Not every State has a Subaru dealership or dealer repairs. I think their use of same body style for 3-4 years gives them an advantage. And with Turbo 5 or 6 speed fun fun fun to drive in & outside of winter.
Sorry but you're wrong on a couple points... the #1 dealership in the USA for the past several years is Van Bortel in Victor NY, outside Rochester. I've bought four new cars from them (including two STIs) and they are truly outstanding. Here in Rochesters, Subarus are everywhere. There are more Hondas and Toyotas but they offer many more models, but you see tons of Subarus. There's just about nothing better in the snow especially when you throw on some Nokian tires.

Also, you're wrong about where they're built. Legacys and Outbacks are built in the US, Imprezas and Outback Sports are built in Gunma, Japan. (Including my '08 STI.) Off the top of my head, I'm not sure about Foresters (we had one but I don't remember where it was built, I think it was Japan) and I'm not sure about the Tribeca. I don't believe any of that has changed for many years.

As for body styles... well, the Impreza was all new for '02, got a refresh in '04, another refresh in '06, and all new for '08. If anything, that's more changes than most of the other companies.

I do think of Subaru and Pentax similarly, though. Subaru is certainly less likely to go away than the massively-larger General Motors and I'm not too concerned about Pentax disappearing. (I am heartbroken that Subaru killed their World Rally team for 2009... )
01-05-2009, 02:57 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Groucho Quote
I do think of Subaru and Pentax similarly, though.
Tough, weatherproof, good outdoors, compact, loyal following amongst no-nonsense, practical types.

Pentax should focus their marketing in the northern US Rain proofing would come in handy in the Pacific NW!
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