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01-09-2009, 10:07 AM   #91
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Thats been true about olympus but

Olympus last year changed the way they are sold in camera stores. They acquired the Sony business model where as a dealer you must buy $100,000 a year minimum product to keep your olympus dealership viable. This business model dropped Olympus from all but one local camera shop. Costco does carry olympus but not at any other local retailers except the area proshop. I was told Pentax did this too and has since back peddled and modified their $100,000 annual buy in. Now my local dealers buy pentax from Amazon for resale as special order. Me, I can order up my Pentax online so theres no need for me to have a sales clerk order it for me and bill me full msrp plus the govenor's take. There are numerous stores locally I can handle high dollar Canon and Nikon product to make informed decisions.

Me I happily own Pentax K20D and its so feature rich. More so than my 5D and likely the D700 I'd like to add too. But they are full frame and fill a need I must have due to my middle aged eyes. My wife is going to do biz 50 miles from Mount Rushmore in a couple weeks and she'll take K20D & 50mm 2.8 SMC-A macro & 105mm 2.5 Macro Vivitar series One & 80-320mm FA. I can't wait to see the exceptional images she'll get with the amazing K20D and her skills and vision. Hopefully she'll visit Badlands too. She's booked two extra days on top of her afternoon biz meeting.



QuoteOriginally posted by Groucho Quote
Olympus DSLRs seem to be sold as many places (around me, at least) as Canon and Nikon DSLRs, even in the warehouse club. I'm not sure if I could go to any store locally and buy a Pentax DSLR. (There is one Ritz in a mall and the big local camera store has Samsung DSLRs last I checked.) That their sales are barely above Pentax's seems like a sad statement for them. It would be interesting to see sales numbers for them, and also, sales numbers for online retailers that cater to photo buffs like B&H, Adorama, Beach, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if Pentax is the #3 best seller at those places. But who knows?



Last edited by Samsungian; 01-09-2009 at 10:17 AM. Reason: "he" changed to "her" argh ;^)
01-09-2009, 05:55 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I think its been years since Nikon topped Canon in global annual sales. I can tell you canon takes this top dog competetion seriously. From early december until last few days ago Canon dropped their minimum advertised pricing they impose on dealers. Likely 90% of all their lens line was 10% off. Example 300mm 2.8L IS usually sells at B&H for $4100 got down to $3728 and free delivery. It was very tempting for me as this is last item I considered getting to complete my eos system. But for same $3800 I can instead get D700 and their 14-24mm/2.8. Two items I'd really to add at somepoint soon. 5 days ago canon re-elevated their 300mm 2.8 IS to $4,100 so that bridge is burned and i am no longer tempted until next 3rd week of December 2009. Also in week before Christmas B&H included next day FedEx to all dslr sales. So with this observation I'll guess Canon ends 2008 #1 again.

For Pentax it is the fight with Olympus who makes truely "waterproof" E3 dslr and pricier "waterproof" lenses and larger than 1x optical viewfinder and articulated viewscreen. E3 was at $1298 for Holidays, now $1316. So 11 months after K20D was announced E3 was within a few bucks where Pentax launched K20D at 1-23-2008 for $1299.99.

We won't see IDC report until some media outlet pays their $4,500 to excerpt the report. Me I'd rather buy $4,500 in equiptment than get the unit number sales for 2008 but someone will buy it and report the dslr sales ;^)
I agree that Olympus does present competition for Pentax's intent to build rugged cameras. They already know about proper sealing both in DSLRs (E-x) and compacts (mju series). I still think the niche (but certainly not a small niche) market for an affordable weather-sealed system is still up in the air, though. Olympus has the affordable lens, but no affordable body. On the flip side, Pentax has that affordable body (take your pick - K20D, K200D - both go for much cheaper than the E-3) but no affordable lens to go with it.

I had hopes that the E-30 would have sealing, just to goad Pentax to make affordable sealed lenses, but it was not meant to be.

I think the first manufacturer to offer a fully-sealed package for $1000 wins the hearts (and pockets) of photographers who venture to harsh conditions (and might get mountaineers, kayakers, etc. interested, too).

$4,500 for the report? Geez. I could've already gone two systems with that money.

QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Olympus last year changed the way they are sold in camera stores. They acquired the Sony business model where as a dealer you must buy $100,000 a year minimum product to keep your olympus dealership viable. This business model dropped Olympus from all but one local camera shop. Costco does carry olympus but not at any other local retailers except the area proshop. I was told Pentax did this too and has since back peddled and modified their $100,000 annual buy in. Now my local dealers buy pentax from Amazon for resale as special order. Me, I can order up my Pentax online so theres no need for me to have a sales clerk order it for me and bill me full msrp plus the govenor's take. There are numerous stores locally I can handle high dollar Canon and Nikon product to make informed decisions.
I really still don't like this new-fangled system wherein small dealers are left out of the loop. For one, many new buyers for DSLRs (I'm thinking new hobbyists) would probably go to those specialty stores and browse available offerings there instead of going to big-chain electronics stores. Not to mention those specific consumers, being hobbyists, are the ones most likely to buy additional lenses and accessories in the future.

I do understand the need to expose the products to average Joe consumer (who might buy a DSLR on impulse when shopping in big-chain stores), but would it kill camera companies to give leeways to specialty stores?

For the rest of us who already do research over the internet, online is fine. I'm just thinking about others who think they're best-served going to specialty stores to make inquiries.
01-09-2009, 07:27 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
I'm just thinking about others who think they're best-served going to specialty stores to make inquiries.
what is the business purpose of spending any time & effort all on a store which sells 3-4 Pentax bodies and may be 8-10 lenses a year ? you probably spend more money supporting it on a sales/marketing side - pure loss... $100K - it is like selling 1 Pentax camera a day, even less ?
01-09-2009, 08:42 PM   #94
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100K to carry Pentax or no minimums to carry Nikon and Canon

Nikon and Canon have not put these 100K annual order requirements in place that Sony and Olympus and Pentax have. Lets say you own a business selling gear. Who you gonna carry? Oh, and Who runs ads in my local market place? Nikon and Canon. So why even bother with the other three brands?

Now Sony is kinda unique in that there is a Sony Outlet store 20 miles from me but I've never been to it. Sony has replaced the local dealer with their own inhouse sales locations likely due to their vast array of products. I've never been to a Pentax or Olympus factory outlet store and I doubt they exisit.




QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
what is the business purpose of spending any time & effort all on a store which sells 3-4 Pentax bodies and may be 8-10 lenses a year ? you probably spend more money supporting it on a sales/marketing side - pure loss... $100K - it is like selling 1 Pentax camera a day, even less ?


01-09-2009, 09:46 PM   #95
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I dunno, Samsungian. Sony made maybe one too many overpriced VCRs and Walkmans that fell apart for me to really want to invest in their system, on some visceral level, I admit. Got to the point I wouldn't pick up a piece of Sony off the *street,* knowing if it was down, for any little thing, it was FUBAR. (actually, I always had good feelings about Panasonic for that: never did seem to be what people called 'good stuff' but it kept running when Sony stuff or whatever cheapie thing I had fell apart)

Not saying they aren't necessarily making a fine product now: just if they handed me an a900 I might say, 'Get that name off the prism, you're psyching me out, man.' Maybe put the word 'Alpha' up there. You want to be a camera maker, get in the spirit of things.
01-10-2009, 05:49 AM   #96
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I'm not a fan of sony either but...

...unless you own a K20D then your Pentax dslr uses a Sony sensor. K20D is the only Pentax dslr with a Samsung made sensor.

My point was Sony was first to require $100,000 annual order. Then Olympus did the following year. And in 2008 Pentax joined the in.

Neither Canon or Nikon require these annual minimums(yet).

So if you owned a camera shop who would you stock in 2009? The two brands that advertise on TV that do not have 100K minimums? Or the other three brands that require you to order $100,000 in product a year from each?

Sony has sales options, their own stores. Where does this leave Olympus and Pentax in the local marketplace presence ?




QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
I dunno, Samsungian. Sony made maybe one too many overpriced VCRs and Walkmans that fell apart for me to really want to invest in their system, on some visceral level, I admit. Got to the point I wouldn't pick up a piece of Sony off the *street,* knowing if it was down, for any little thing, it was FUBAR. (actually, I always had good feelings about Panasonic for that: never did seem to be what people called 'good stuff' but it kept running when Sony stuff or whatever cheapie thing I had fell apart)

Not saying they aren't necessarily making a fine product now: just if they handed me an a900 I might say, 'Get that name off the prism, you're psyching me out, man.' Maybe put the word 'Alpha' up there. You want to be a camera maker, get in the spirit of things.
01-10-2009, 07:07 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
what is the business purpose of spending any time & effort all on a store which sells 3-4 Pentax bodies and may be 8-10 lenses a year ? you probably spend more money supporting it on a sales/marketing side - pure loss... $100K - it is like selling 1 Pentax camera a day, even less ?
I'm not saying they spend more time with specialty stores, just that they don't be too strung up on them and force them to buy a huge amount of items knowing they don't attract the same volume big-chain stores do.

Specialty store sales folk are much more fairer with brand treatment than big-store salespeople, though, I think. They won't dissuade someone from purchasing a product from a company that doesn't dole out as much spiffs. Pentax could get their products in every Walmart and the like, but it wouldn't help much if the salespeople push people away from Pentax and to another company that offers better spiffs.

Well, that's how I understand it, anyway. Things might have changed, though.
01-10-2009, 04:15 PM   #98
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My findings while trying to verify this statistics:

Hello friends,

Pentax Japanese 2008 market share dropping to 1.6% would be seriously bad news. So, I tried to verify the figures...

The original source for those figures actually is from
BCN Ranking.

They do indeed list the top-selling 20 "models" in 2008. They do list the market share of lens in KAF mount as well. It is:
10.4%.

So, what's going wrong here? Well, they publish complete monthly data too. Taking their top-selling 20 "models" in December 2008, Pentax market share would be 0%!!!

The K-m scores at #21, and at many more positions further down. The K200d is close, the K20D not too manyx positions behind. Point is: They rate EVERY bundle offering as a different model so that no single one made it into the top 20 (and only one (out of a dozen or so) over the year). The entire list has 80 positions and there is no reason whatsoever to truncate the list when building the totals. This statistics is useless for smaller brands with more than one market offering.

Here is the complete list for Japan December 2008:
BCN Ranking DSLR Dec 2008

Summary:
The figure given by the OP is false. As always in journalism, first verify your source, then publish (read: create a thread...).


Last edited by falconeye; 01-10-2009 at 04:21 PM.
01-10-2009, 04:37 PM   #99
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Thanks for carefully analyzing the data!

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Hello friends,

Pentax Japanese 2008 market share dropping to 1.6% would be seriously bad news. So, I tried to verify the figures...

The original source for those figures actually is from

BCN Ranking.

They do indeed list the top-selling 20 "models" in 2008. They do list the market share of lens in KAF mount as well. It is:
10.4%.

So, what's going wrong here? Well, they publish complete monthly data too. Taking their top-selling 20 "models" in December 2008, Pentax market share would be 0%!!!

The K-m scores at #21, and at many more positions further down. The K200d is close, the K20D not too manyx positions behind. Point is: They rate EVERY bundle offering as a different model so that no single one made it into the top 20 (and only one (out of a dozen or so) over the year). The entire list has 80 positions and there is no reason whatsoever to truncate the list when building the totals. This statistics is useless for smaller brands with more than one market offering.

Here is the complete list for Japan December 2008:
BCN Ranking DSLR Dec 2008

Summary:
The figure given by the OP is false. As always in journalism, first verify your source, then publish (read: create a thread...).
01-10-2009, 07:15 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote

Specialty store sales folk are much more fairer with brand treatment than big-store salespeople, though, I think. They won't dissuade someone from purchasing a product from a company that doesn't dole out as much spiffs. Pentax could get their products in every Walmart and the like, but it wouldn't help much if the salespeople push people away from Pentax and to another company that offers better spiffs.
I am not sure if people on the floor in W*M are on commission... most probably not (it's W*M - not CC) - so they should not care about C&N or P from that standpoint.
01-10-2009, 07:28 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Nikon and Canon have not put these 100K annual order requirements in place that Sony and Olympus and Pentax have. Lets say you own a business selling gear. Who you gonna carry? Oh, and Who runs ads in my local market place? Nikon and Canon. So why even bother with the other three brands?
in a staffing company, an employee who is billing @ $200/hr (think ERP) and an employee who is billing @ $20/hr (think some very low level accounting) both require on average the time from HR to support both... now if I can't outsource HR support more that I did already, I should reduce the time to support that $20/hr junk... or I will make a decision to quit from working positions where clients paying me $20/hr billing rate, because HR/sales/recruiting cost me money and if I don't have it at a level that for example AccounTemps does it makes me no good.
01-20-2009, 06:59 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Hello friends,

Pentax Japanese 2008 market share dropping to 1.6% would be seriously bad news. So, I tried to verify the figures...

The original source for those figures actually is from
BCN Ranking.

They do indeed list the top-selling 20 "models" in 2008. They do list the market share of lens in KAF mount as well. It is:
10.4%.

So, what's going wrong here? Well, they publish complete monthly data too. Taking their top-selling 20 "models" in December 2008, Pentax market share would be 0%!!!

The K-m scores at #21, and at many more positions further down. The K200d is close, the K20D not too manyx positions behind. Point is: They rate EVERY bundle offering as a different model so that no single one made it into the top 20 (and only one (out of a dozen or so) over the year). The entire list has 80 positions and there is no reason whatsoever to truncate the list when building the totals. This statistics is useless for smaller brands with more than one market offering.

Here is the complete list for Japan December 2008:
BCN Ranking DSLR Dec 2008

Summary:
The figure given by the OP is false. As always in journalism, first verify your source, then publish (read: create a thread...).
Thanks for doing the work. I couldn't make sense out of it either. But as a Pentaxian for soon 10 years, and two on forums, threads like these don't make me panic

But as always, you come to the rescue with thought throught posts, and fact stated information.
02-02-2009, 06:37 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Hello friends,

Pentax Japanese 2008 market share dropping to 1.6% would be seriously bad news. So, I tried to verify the figures...

The original source for those figures actually is from
BCN Ranking.

They do indeed list the top-selling 20 "models" in 2008. They do list the market share of lens in KAF mount as well. It is:
10.4%.

So, what's going wrong here? Well, they publish complete monthly data too. Taking their top-selling 20 "models" in December 2008, Pentax market share would be 0%!!!

The K-m scores at #21, and at many more positions further down. The K200d is close, the K20D not too manyx positions behind. Point is: They rate EVERY bundle offering as a different model so that no single one made it into the top 20 (and only one (out of a dozen or so) over the year). The entire list has 80 positions and there is no reason whatsoever to truncate the list when building the totals. This statistics is useless for smaller brands with more than one market offering.

Here is the complete list for Japan December 2008:
BCN Ranking DSLR Dec 2008

Summary:
The figure given by the OP is false. As always in journalism, first verify your source, then publish (read: create a thread...).
Not to much surprise, but RH swallowed this info completely without any academic run-though, or a try to figure out how these facts and background came about :

RH : "their sales, just look at their pathetic sales results in the last year and it says it all" ...


And as we tried to tell him, he was proven wrong also, on the point of K-m shooting rate. This has now been confirmed by DPr :
“The advertised frame rate of the K2000 is 'Approx' 3.5 frames per second, which is essentially the result we got.”
Pentax K2000 Review: 11. Performance: Digital Photography Review

RH : "Actual shooting rate/frequency is only at 2.87 frames per second (well below and much worse than the claimed Spec. of 3.5 fps)"


Maybe if one is too interested in the reality beeing a certain way, it can cloud one better judgment.
I seldom waste time on his site, but I guess I was bored.

Last edited by Jonson PL; 02-03-2009 at 12:36 AM.
02-02-2009, 06:57 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Hello friends,

Pentax Japanese 2008 market share dropping to 1.6% would be seriously bad news. So, I tried to verify the figures...

The original source for those figures actually is from
BCN Ranking.

They do indeed list the top-selling 20 "models" in 2008. They do list the market share of lens in KAF mount as well. It is:
10.4%.

So, what's going wrong here? Well, they publish complete monthly data too. Taking their top-selling 20 "models" in December 2008, Pentax market share would be 0%!!!

The K-m scores at #21, and at many more positions further down. The K200d is close, the K20D not too manyx positions behind. Point is: They rate EVERY bundle offering as a different model so that no single one made it into the top 20 (and only one (out of a dozen or so) over the year). The entire list has 80 positions and there is no reason whatsoever to truncate the list when building the totals. This statistics is useless for smaller brands with more than one market offering.

Here is the complete list for Japan December 2008:
BCN Ranking DSLR Dec 2008

Summary:
The figure given by the OP is false. As always in journalism, first verify your source, then publish (read: create a thread...).
I would also like to Thank You for clearing up the numerous errors in his conjectures with actual facts. Also for taking the time to do the research and analyze the numbers to state the reality vs the conjecture. Like others and having owned Pentax gear for now 30 years, I ignore the "sky is falling" stuff and this was just another example of forum/internet misinformation being spouted as truth.

My only concern is the bloody attention drawn to that blog and to a lesser extent, threads with titles like this. On that note. Why not start a new thread (no RH references directly) with a better title to refute those numbers for all to see. Your well considered rebuttal may easily be lost being as it is post #98 of a multi page thread.
02-02-2009, 09:07 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
Not to much surprise, but RH swallowed this info completely without any academic run-though, or a try to figure out how these facts and background came about :

snip


Maybe if one is too interested in the reality beeing a certain way, it can cloud one better judgment.
I seldom waste time on his site, but I guess I was bored.

Actually, could you edit your post and take out the links to his blog? That's the worst thing you can do...people click on them here and his google rankings rise. Do you really want some noob googling Pentax and getting his site as a hit? And have said unsuspecting person actually believe the drivel he types?

No RH links in posts, please
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