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01-03-2009, 05:19 PM   #1
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Pentax slips to 1.6% japanese market share over 2008: 5th place!

Sony verstoot Pentax van derde plek best verkochte dslr's | Electronics | Tweakers.net Nieuws

Even if you don't read Dutch, the market share picture talks for itself.

Looking at the market share developments in Japan, can we still expect Pentax to be a brand to invest in?
Will sigma, tamron and others remain to invest enough into the Pentax mount? For 1.6% market share, I guess not.

Looking at these developments, I'd think again if I were in the various management teams of Hoya, Sigma, Tamron or Metz. Without proper new technical developments and enough marketing budgets I have serious doubt investing my personal budgets in future Pentax gear. Despite the fact that I like it best.

So, where to go next? Sony or Olympus? I'd hate to go to C**** or N****.

- Bert

01-03-2009, 05:35 PM   #2
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This has been discussed in many of the other threads on here already.

Market share is not allways the best indicator either - you need info on profit. You can have the largest slice of the cake but if you are making a loss there really is no point.

Now I am not saying Canikon are making a loss, but I would not be surprised if Sony are selling their Camera bodies at a significant loss to gain market share, then hoping the horrendously expensive lenses make up the shortfall.

Pentax/Hoya are looking very much like a company positioning themselves into a niche in the market - which they already have with affordable quality camera bodies and a particular emphasis on quality prime lenses.

If you need a camera to be a top seller then Pentax is the wrong choice for you (you should really buy a Canon Xsi) , if you want a camera that represents value for money and also has some of the finest lenses available then Pentax is the go.
01-03-2009, 05:38 PM   #3
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Good thing they looked at Top 20 huh?

Had they looked at Top 10 pentax would be a no show:

“Big Two” continue to stomp Digital SLR market in Japan - SlashGear

QuoteOriginally posted by bymy141 Quote
Sony verstoot Pentax van derde plek best verkochte dslr's | Electronics | Tweakers.net Nieuws

Even if you don't read Dutch, the market share picture talks for itself.

Looking at the market share developments in Japan, can we still expect Pentax to be a brand to invest in?
Will sigma, tamron and others remain to invest enough into the Pentax mount? For 1.6% market share, I guess not.

Looking at these developments, I'd think again if I were in the various management teams of Hoya, Sigma, Tamron or Metz. Without proper new technical developments and enough marketing budgets I have serious doubt investing my personal budgets in future Pentax gear. Despite the fact that I like it best.

So, where to go next? Sony or Olympus? I'd hate to go to C**** or N****.

- Bert
01-03-2009, 06:20 PM   #4
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How big is the Japanese market compared to the US or broader world market? And more importantly, what are the profitability numbers? Mercedes has less than 2% of the US auto market, but I don't see Mercedes owners running off saying they need to buy a GM or Toyota. Porsche has even less of the US market, but for the past decade or so has been one of the most profitable manufacturers.

It is a little more complicated than just looking at sales figures...

Then again, if some are so worried, then why not jump ship? And if you have jumped ship, why bother to come here to gloat? Schadenfreude?

01-03-2009, 06:41 PM   #5
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Nostatic said exactly what I wanted to say. Japanese market is important, but certainly not the full monty. I hope lots of people look at those figures and decide to bail out and sell all their pentax gear. I''m still hoping for a lens or two.

NaCl(THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!)H2O
01-03-2009, 06:52 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by NaClH2O Quote
NaCl(THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!)H2O
Exactly what I was thinking.......... again.
01-03-2009, 07:09 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Had they looked at Top 10 pentax would be a no show:

“Big Two” continue to stomp Digital SLR market in Japan - SlashGear
The 200D was the whole 1.6%.... odd.
What they sold 10 k20's??? I'm beginning to think somethings odd. Actually i'm beginning to believe the Japanese just refused to buy a camera w/ a Samsung sensor... hmmmm...
Anyway for all those "pro pentax needed people"..........
quote........If you’re noticing, there are zero pro body makes it to the chart. ......unquote..
And the Japanese market is extremely important to Pentax.... I see the end of the Samsung/Pentax collaboration coming...
01-03-2009, 07:19 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
The 200D was the whole 1.6%.... odd.
What they sold 10 k20's??? I'm beginning to think somethings odd. Actually i'm beginning to believe the Japanese just refused to buy a camera w/ a Samsung sensor... hmmmm...
Anyway for all those "pro pentax needed people"..........
quote........If you’re noticing, there are zero pro body makes it to the chart. ......unquote..
And the Japanese market is extremely important to Pentax.... I see the end of the Samsung/Pentax collaboration coming...
I think there is something just wrong with the numbers. There's no way that the K20D didn't sell in Japan, regardless if there is a dislike for Korean stuff. Hyundi and Kia sell cars in Japan so I really can't see the Japanese consumer boycotting a digital camera.

The numbers just don't add up. Lets wait to see what comes out in March for the worldwide stats.

01-03-2009, 07:22 PM   #9
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In most stores in Japan, good luck to you finding a Pentax.

The simple fact is that makers pay retailers here for display space, and Pentax either doesn't have the money to compete, isn't willing to spend it, doesn't think it will work, or maybe something else.

I recently was looking at some data on kakaku.com and found that while Pentax may suck at sales they had two of the top five (I think it was) in the customer satisfaction rating.

Japanese consumers are some of the biggest "follow the leader" lemmings in the world. If Canon/Nikon are out front and that's what "everybody" has, then that is what "everybody" will buy. There has been lament over the past years about the number of stray dogs turning up in dog pounds......expensive pedigree dogs. Turned out into the cold by their owners because the fashion regarding the latest trendy breed of dog changed and they followed right along by throwing out the old dog and getting a new one.

You can look at the sales data in terms of what it means financially to the company, but it shouldn't be taken as any sort of barometer of how savvy consumers rate the products from the various makers, because if there is one thing Japanese consumers in general are not, it is savvy. The strongest trend here is 高けりゃいい (If it's expensive it must be good) and they will turn their noses up at and walk right past anything that is suspiciously cheap. Makers know that tendency full well and have for decades price-gouged the hell out of people in this country, knowing they wouldn't be satisfied paying less.

There was once a president of a chain electronic stores in Tokyo, Jounan Denki, who decided to do a little experiment in one of his stores. He told about it on television and the story went like this: He imported a lot of blue jeans from a maker in Vietnam, and put up two large display bins in one of his stores. On one bin was a sign proclaiming the jeans at 1,980 yen (about $10) and on the other a similar sign marked for 198 yen (about $2).

He reported that people rushed into the store, ran right past the 198 yen jeans, and fought each other over the 1,980 yen jeans; it was bedlam. Nobody even looked at the cheaper jeans.

The interviewer said, "Well, that was an interesting experiment, but not very realistic. After all, you can't really sell jeans at that price."

The president of the company shot back that not only were they the exact same blue jeans in both bins, but that even at 198 yen per pair he could turn a profit on them.....but that Japanese consumers wouldn't buy them at that price. Mark them up 1000% and people fight over them. Over the last quarter-century I've seen plenty of similar examples myself.

If Pentax wanted to increase their sales in Japan, the smartest thing they could do would be to double the prices.

EDIT:

Peter, Hyundai and Kia may be trying to sell cars in Japan, but they're not doing a very good job of it. I'm on the road half the day every day and I think I may have seen one Hyundai. I've seen a couple of defunct dealerships, though. They're having better luck with scooters such as from Kymco. You have to understand that the problems and mutual enmity between the Japanese and the Koreans runs very deep and is only recently beginning to show small signs of thawing. Japan occupied Korea from 1910 to 1945, treated them horribly, and brought great numbers of them to Japan for forced labor during the war. They and their descendants who are still here do not have citizenship, face discrimination, and need special permission to re-enter Japan (which is the only home the second and third generation have ever known) if they go on vacation. They are barred from many public service jobs, can't vote, and are sometimes even barred from tournament play on high school sports teams. The Korean side of the resentment is understandable. The Japanese side comes, I think, from the same way you start to feel toward a guy who loaned you money when you haven't paid him back yet.

Last edited by Mike Cash; 01-03-2009 at 07:30 PM.
01-03-2009, 07:28 PM   #10
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Actually the strategy would be to set a high MSRP then sell at a significant discount. While high price commands attention, a "bargain" makes sales. Perhaps it isn't any coincidence that Pentax has announced price increases.

Interesting times. If you believe Thom Hogan, Pentax will be in for a rough 2009. Actually they might be a little better positioned as they likely have a lot less overhead than Canikon. Time will tell, and no one here probably has any real information. Tech companies can act very oddly, and in most cases it is because decisions are made according to factors that the general public don't know about and/or make no logical sense.
01-03-2009, 07:34 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by bymy141 Quote
So, where to go next? Sony or Olympus? I'd hate to go to C**** or N****.

- Bert
Just curious as to your reasoning. Do you think that Canon/Nikon are just worse, or do you prefer to root for the "underdog"?

Of the two, I'd probably spring for Olympus... though I have to admit Sony seems to really be working on creating a great DSLR system. The A900 is so unorthodox that you have to wonder how much of a say the marketing department had in it.
01-03-2009, 07:52 PM   #12
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I'm suprised that -I- got a PENTAX DSLR this year. Here in Canada, you seldom see Pentax cameras appear in fliers of stores that sell them. From the little I know about HOYA and PENTAX is that they focus on medical equipment. They don't seem to advertise their cameras.

BTW, so is Sigma's DSLR Japanese market share approx. 0%?

Slightly off-topic: If PENTAX's actual market consists of people like me, then they should not start making/marketing DSLRs for un-techie "moms" or the engadget-type sheeple: the only thing I'd change about my K200D is to increase the paltry number of dials and buttons--it's low when compared to K20D and going through the menus isn't fun. Also, I wouldn't mind a light under the LCD--it would be useful for astrophotography.
01-03-2009, 08:17 PM   #13
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Wow, thanks for the insight

I had no idea.

Back when I tried unsuccessfully to buy a brand new "pentax" DS2 the local rumour then was samsung of Korea were going to buy out Pentax Corp. Then Hoya of Japan slowly bought Pentax instead. Last year the very credible local rumour was Samsung manufactures all pentax logo'd dslrs. If true then maybe this too could be why Pentax has dropped so far in Japanese market? Since their Pentax Logo'd cameras are manufactured by Samsung for "pentax".

My Canon 5D dslrs are "Made in Japan". Nikon D700 is still "Made in Japan" everyone one of my canon lenses bought in 2008 all: "Made In Japan" The Canon 5D mark II I handled locally a few days ago is also: Made In Japan.

Very little of pentax logo'd items are made in Japan thesedays. Usually you have to look at rear element of lenses to find the somewhat hidden "VietNam" origin. My Samsung dslrs and K20D are all "Made in Philippines" Is it possible the outsourcing of "Pentax" production has lead to its sales decline in Japan in 2008?

QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
In most stores in Japan, good luck to you finding a Pentax.

The simple fact is that makers pay retailers here for display space, and Pentax either doesn't have the money to compete, isn't willing to spend it, doesn't think it will work, or maybe something else.

I recently was looking at some data on kakaku.com and found that while Pentax may suck at sales they had two of the top five (I think it was) in the customer satisfaction rating.

Japanese consumers are some of the biggest "follow the leader" lemmings in the world. If Canon/Nikon are out front and that's what "everybody" has, then that is what "everybody" will buy. There has been lament over the past years about the number of stray dogs turning up in dog pounds......expensive pedigree dogs. Turned out into the cold by their owners because the fashion regarding the latest trendy breed of dog changed and they followed right along by throwing out the old dog and getting a new one.

You can look at the sales data in terms of what it means financially to the company, but it shouldn't be taken as any sort of barometer of how savvy consumers rate the products from the various makers, because if there is one thing Japanese consumers in general are not, it is savvy. The strongest trend here is 高けりゃいい (If it's expensive it must be good) and they will turn their noses up at and walk right past anything that is suspiciously cheap. Makers know that tendency full well and have for decades price-gouged the hell out of people in this country, knowing they wouldn't be satisfied paying less.

There was once a president of a chain electronic stores in Tokyo, Jounan Denki, who decided to do a little experiment in one of his stores. He told about it on television and the story went like this: He imported a lot of blue jeans from a maker in Vietnam, and put up two large display bins in one of his stores. On one bin was a sign proclaiming the jeans at 1,980 yen (about $10) and on the other a similar sign marked for 198 yen (about $2).

He reported that people rushed into the store, ran right past the 198 yen jeans, and fought each other over the 1,980 yen jeans; it was bedlam. Nobody even looked at the cheaper jeans.

The interviewer said, "Well, that was an interesting experiment, but not very realistic. After all, you can't really sell jeans at that price."

The president of the company shot back that not only were they the exact same blue jeans in both bins, but that even at 198 yen per pair he could turn a profit on them.....but that Japanese consumers wouldn't buy them at that price. Mark them up 1000% and people fight over them. Over the last quarter-century I've seen plenty of similar examples myself.

If Pentax wanted to increase their sales in Japan, the smartest thing they could do would be to double the prices.

EDIT:

Peter, Hyundai and Kia may be trying to sell cars in Japan, but they're not doing a very good job of it. I'm on the road half the day every day and I think I may have seen one Hyundai. I've seen a couple of defunct dealerships, though. They're having better luck with scooters such as from Kymco. You have to understand that the problems and mutual enmity between the Japanese and the Koreans runs very deep and is only recently beginning to show small signs of thawing. Japan occupied Korea from 1910 to 1945, treated them horribly, and brought great numbers of them to Japan for forced labor during the war. They and their descendants who are still here do not have citizenship, face discrimination, and need special permission to re-enter Japan (which is the only home the second and third generation have ever known) if they go on vacation. They are barred from many public service jobs, can't vote, and are sometimes even barred from tournament play on high school sports teams. The Korean side of the resentment is understandable. The Japanese side comes, I think, from the same way you start to feel toward a guy who loaned you money when you haven't paid him back yet.
01-03-2009, 08:23 PM   #14
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As long as money is being made Pentax will be alive and 3rd parties will make products for it. Market share does not determine if a product line is profitable, Apple is proof plenty of that.
01-03-2009, 08:26 PM   #15
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What I am going to say is completely contrary to the sky-is-falling chorus that rang like church bells during the merger: The best thing that happened to Pentax was being acquired by Hoya last year.

We are in the worst worldwide recession since World War II (almightly close to a depression, brother!). Yes the sky is falling - and for economic reasons no one thought possible - but at least Pentax and Hoya are wearing hardhats. The roof is collapsing on top of Nikon, Canon and Sony.

To emphasis the point about profitability made earlier... the thing the sky-is-falling crowd ignored during the takeover is that Pentax was profitable. It just wasn't growing its earnings. The last time I looked Hoya was also profitable. Any decent financial analyst would have taken one look at the balance sheets and concluded both companies are conservatively managed.

A small but profitable competitor like Pentax joining up with Hoya will actually make for a stronger combined company, because small competitors are more likely to fail than bigger ones in our current economy.

We are in an environment where the winner(s) is/are going to be the proverbial Last Man Standing. The competitors that merely survive to the end of this long dark tunnel will count themselves lucky.

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It pains me to see some of our friends on this forum who have lost jobs, or worse, over the last year. You have my deepest sympathies.
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