Ben was right - two new models!

George Lama · 01-06-2009, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by mithrandir

We are all going to be so mad when Pentax comes out with the next big one and we buy it . . . only to find the real next big one comes out the following year.

It's always that way - always next year... Right after I bought the K10, the K20 was announced. I'm waiting now that I finally bought a K20D (it arrives tomorrow

)...

Buddha Jones · 01-06-2009, 02:53 PM

I am glad that I ALMOST missed this thread. I am excited about the new releases and hope that some of that technology reaches the upcoming SLRs.

glanglois · 01-06-2009, 04:38 PM

I just learned about Pixel Tracking Shake Reduction, known forever more as PTSR:

"When recording still images, the Optio P70’s new Pixel Track SR (Shake Reduction) mode effectively compensates for camera shake by processing the amount of image blur with a dedicated ASIC. Pixel Track SR tracks motion blur at the pixel level and calculates blur volume in real time. After exposure, the recovery filter centers the motion effect around each pixel to compartmentalize the blur. Then, an adjustment filter sharpens the pixels to help remove the blur effect. Pixel Track SR results in sharp images without adding high ISO noise. "

Any idea how effective this approach is? And how well it discriminates betwen subject motion and camera motion? And what "blur volume" might be? And why one would prefer this approach to optical image stabilization?

I expect that there's some interesting math involved in the computations - math that is carried out (at least partially) in the ASIC to reduce calculation time. ASICs sound expensive unless they're COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf).

Can someone explain this without calculus?

flyer · 01-06-2009, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by glanglois

I just learned about Pixel Tracking Shake Reduction, known forever more as PTSR:

"When recording still images, the Optio P70’s new Pixel Track SR (Shake Reduction) mode effectively compensates for camera shake by processing the amount of image blur with a dedicated ASIC. Pixel Track SR tracks motion blur at the pixel level and calculates blur volume in real time. After exposure, the recovery filter centers the motion effect around each pixel to compartmentalize the blur. Then, an adjustment filter sharpens the pixels to help remove the blur effect. Pixel Track SR results in sharp images without adding high ISO noise. "

Any idea how effective this approach is? And how well it discriminates betwen subject motion and camera motion? And what "blur volume" might be? And why one would prefer this approach to optical image stabilization?

I expect that there's some interesting math involved in the computations - math that is carried out (at least partially) in the ASIC to reduce calculation time. ASICs sound expensive unless they're COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf).

Can someone explain this without calculus?

I think it was Sony who used something similar on 8mm. video cameras about 15 years ago, if my memory serves me well (sometimes old geezer gets mixed up). They used to call it digital image stabilisation.

F-Stop · 01-06-2009, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by F-Stop:

Time to sell the K100D and upgrade to the P70, I can take higher res. images and HD video for a wedding all at once!

Crosses fingers for promising SLR models though, need a new body worth investing in further.

Originally posted by bobrapp

Some time ago, I said that my next camera (and I have about 20) would be a full frame camera. I changed my mind and went wit the K20d and some prime lenses (I am a prime kind of guy).

The only issue I have with some of the posts here are that some people are confronting and view their place as absolute - I gave that away many many years ago. A camera is a camera and little matters if it is not used for the sake of photography.

Lets get over it and move on.

Cheers,

Sigh... I guess there's a reason I rarely post here anymore, everything said is stepped on by someone else. The P70 sounds like a nice camera, I want one I can put in my pocket also and for the features this fits the bill. I just don't want to hold off waiting forever for a body I think is worth spending the little money I do have for features I want . No plans to jump ship but I also can't afford to buy a new model each year just to get a few anticipated upgrades. Like I said, fingers crossed or a K20D it is.

vinzer · 01-06-2009, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by glanglois

Any idea how effective this approach is? And how well it discriminates betwen subject motion and camera motion? And what "blur volume" might be? And why one would prefer this approach to optical image stabilization?

I expect that there's some interesting math involved in the computations - math that is carried out (at least partially) in the ASIC to reduce calculation time. ASICs sound expensive unless they're COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf).

Can someone explain this without calculus?

I can't very well answer most of your questions, but as to why that approach was taken instead of OIS, I reckon it's cheaper to put in a piece of code whose R&D manhours cost can easily be distributed among a mass of cameras as opposed to real hardware that will add to the manufacturing cost per unit, not to mention once they have the code in place, it's also cheaper to include it in future cameras for zero cost (or minimal cost if they decided to improve on the code).

It'll be interesting to see how it works in the real world, if it's effective, and if it degrades image quality by a big chunk.

On a semi-related note, the new iMovie from Apple also includes the option to put in software-based image stabilization to movies in post-production. Perhaps that's (software-based stabilization) a big thing nowadays.

inuafrj · 01-07-2009, 12:32 AM

Isn't it odd that the Pentax compacts opted for a software based SR instead of lens or sensor based SR. Just a thought that I had when I was browsing through the Optio lineup. The DSLRs have a sensor shift mechanism SR but they did not apply this to the Optio. Vinzer, is probably right with the cost thing. It is probably expensive to install the SR they have for DSLRs into the Compact Cameras (If it is even possible to install it).

Another idea is probably that they have not found a way to do Lens based image stabilization which is what C**** uses. Or no workaround for the patent on this one. Just a guess though.

thibs · 01-07-2009, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by inuafrj

Isn't it odd that the Pentax compacts opted for a software based SR instead of lens or sensor based SR. Just a thought that I had when I was browsing through the Optio lineup. The DSLRs have a sensor shift mechanism SR but they did not apply this to the Optio. Vinzer, is probably right with the cost thing. It is probably expensive to install the SR they have for DSLRs into the Compact Cameras (If it is even possible to install it).

Another idea is probably that they have not found a way to do Lens based image stabilization which is what C**** uses. Or no workaround for the patent on this one. Just a guess though.

Optio A series have SR. Those are the only Optios with SR.

inuafrj · 01-07-2009, 04:00 AM

Originally posted by thibs

Optio A series have SR. Those are the only Optios with SR.

OOoops.. Sorry, My bad didn't see that one. Thanks!

Kunzite · 01-07-2009, 04:24 AM

The P70 looks like a very compact camera. Maybe there is no room for "standard" SR?

NewRsoul · 01-07-2009, 04:53 AM

It is a space thing? I mean those Optio's are so small, and you'd have to have room for the plates carrying the coils, the sensor mounted on the magnet pcb and movement space in between? The canon p&s with IS seem thicker?

séamuis · 01-07-2009, 05:17 AM

wow, the P70 is gorgeous! and it has an SMC lens with 28mm to boot. well done Pentax.

oh and it comes in white. hello apple fans, meet your new camera. http://www.pentaximaging.com/digital-camera/Optio_P70_-_White/

Buddha Jones · 01-07-2009, 05:55 AM

I love the color line-up! Hopefully this will help generate some revenue for the company.

Mike Cash · 01-07-2009, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by mithrandir

We are all going to be so mad when Pentax comes out with the next big one and we buy it . . . only to find the real next big one comes out the following year.

Who needs to wait a whole year? Just wait until about 15 minutes after a new DSLR is released and Ogl will start a thread moaning about its shortcomings and speculating/lecturing on what the next year's release will be.

**GaryM** · 01-07-2009, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Mike Cash

Who needs to wait a whole year? Just wait until about 15 minutes after a new DSLR is released and Ogl will start a thread moaning about its shortcomings and speculating/lecturing on what the next year's release will be.

Sure, Ogl is the *only one* who will do that, right? When Pentax/Hoya announces the new models, I expect this forum to be at least 75% negative, especially when there is no FF body. I'll be grabbing some popcorn and enjoying the fireworks!

01-06-2009, 04:38 PM	#33
glanglois Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Madison, Wis., USA Posts: 1,506	Pixel Tracking? I just learned about Pixel Tracking Shake Reduction, known forever more as PTSR: "When recording still images, the Optio P70’s new Pixel Track SR (Shake Reduction) mode effectively compensates for camera shake by processing the amount of image blur with a dedicated ASIC. Pixel Track SR tracks motion blur at the pixel level and calculates blur volume in real time. After exposure, the recovery filter centers the motion effect around each pixel to compartmentalize the blur. Then, an adjustment filter sharpens the pixels to help remove the blur effect. Pixel Track SR results in sharp images without adding high ISO noise. " Any idea how effective this approach is? And how well it discriminates betwen subject motion and camera motion? And what "blur volume" might be? And why one would prefer this approach to optical image stabilization? I expect that there's some interesting math involved in the computations - math that is carried out (at least partially) in the ASIC to reduce calculation time. ASICs sound expensive unless they're COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf). Can someone explain this without calculus?

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01-06-2009, 01:10 PM	#31
George Lama Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Buffalo/Rochester, NY Photos: Albums Posts: 1,133	Originally posted by mithrandir We are all going to be so mad when Pentax comes out with the next big one and we buy it . . . only to find the real next big one comes out the following year. It's always that way - always next year... Right after I bought the K10, the K20 was announced. I'm waiting now that I finally bought a K20D (it arrives tomorrow )...

01-06-2009, 02:53 PM	#32
Buddha Jones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Charlotte, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,587	I am glad that I ALMOST missed this thread. I am excited about the new releases and hope that some of that technology reaches the upcoming SLRs.

01-06-2009, 06:07 PM	#34
flyer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada Posts: 2,013	Originally posted by glanglois I just learned about Pixel Tracking Shake Reduction, known forever more as PTSR: "When recording still images, the Optio P70’s new Pixel Track SR (Shake Reduction) mode effectively compensates for camera shake by processing the amount of image blur with a dedicated ASIC. Pixel Track SR tracks motion blur at the pixel level and calculates blur volume in real time. After exposure, the recovery filter centers the motion effect around each pixel to compartmentalize the blur. Then, an adjustment filter sharpens the pixels to help remove the blur effect. Pixel Track SR results in sharp images without adding high ISO noise. " Any idea how effective this approach is? And how well it discriminates betwen subject motion and camera motion? And what "blur volume" might be? And why one would prefer this approach to optical image stabilization? I expect that there's some interesting math involved in the computations - math that is carried out (at least partially) in the ASIC to reduce calculation time. ASICs sound expensive unless they're COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf). Can someone explain this without calculus? I think it was Sony who used something similar on 8mm. video cameras about 15 years ago, if my memory serves me well (sometimes old geezer gets mixed up). They used to call it digital image stabilisation.

01-06-2009, 11:32 PM	#35
F-Stop Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Paradise, Newfoundland, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 303	Originally posted by F-Stop: Time to sell the K100D and upgrade to the P70, I can take higher res. images and HD video for a wedding all at once! Crosses fingers for promising SLR models though, need a new body worth investing in further. Originally posted by bobrapp Some time ago, I said that my next camera (and I have about 20) would be a full frame camera. I changed my mind and went wit the K20d and some prime lenses (I am a prime kind of guy). The only issue I have with some of the posts here are that some people are confronting and view their place as absolute - I gave that away many many years ago. A camera is a camera and little matters if it is not used for the sake of photography. Lets get over it and move on. Cheers, Sigh... I guess there's a reason I rarely post here anymore, everything said is stepped on by someone else. The P70 sounds like a nice camera, I want one I can put in my pocket also and for the features this fits the bill. I just don't want to hold off waiting forever for a body I think is worth spending the little money I do have for features I want . No plans to jump ship but I also can't afford to buy a new model each year just to get a few anticipated upgrades. Like I said, fingers crossed or a K20D it is.

01-06-2009, 11:37 PM	#36
vinzer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philippines Posts: 1,399	Originally posted by glanglois Any idea how effective this approach is? And how well it discriminates betwen subject motion and camera motion? And what "blur volume" might be? And why one would prefer this approach to optical image stabilization? I expect that there's some interesting math involved in the computations - math that is carried out (at least partially) in the ASIC to reduce calculation time. ASICs sound expensive unless they're COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf). Can someone explain this without calculus? I can't very well answer most of your questions, but as to why that approach was taken instead of OIS, I reckon it's cheaper to put in a piece of code whose R&D manhours cost can easily be distributed among a mass of cameras as opposed to real hardware that will add to the manufacturing cost per unit, not to mention once they have the code in place, it's also cheaper to include it in future cameras for zero cost (or minimal cost if they decided to improve on the code). It'll be interesting to see how it works in the real world, if it's effective, and if it degrades image quality by a big chunk. On a semi-related note, the new iMovie from Apple also includes the option to put in software-based image stabilization to movies in post-production. Perhaps that's (software-based stabilization) a big thing nowadays.

01-07-2009, 12:32 AM	#37
inuafrj Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Philippines Posts: 18	Isn't it odd that the Pentax compacts opted for a software based SR instead of lens or sensor based SR. Just a thought that I had when I was browsing through the Optio lineup. The DSLRs have a sensor shift mechanism SR but they did not apply this to the Optio. Vinzer, is probably right with the cost thing. It is probably expensive to install the SR they have for DSLRs into the Compact Cameras (If it is even possible to install it). Another idea is probably that they have not found a way to do Lens based image stabilization which is what C**** uses. Or no workaround for the patent on this one. Just a guess though.

01-07-2009, 01:42 AM	#38
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by inuafrj Isn't it odd that the Pentax compacts opted for a software based SR instead of lens or sensor based SR. Just a thought that I had when I was browsing through the Optio lineup. The DSLRs have a sensor shift mechanism SR but they did not apply this to the Optio. Vinzer, is probably right with the cost thing. It is probably expensive to install the SR they have for DSLRs into the Compact Cameras (If it is even possible to install it). Another idea is probably that they have not found a way to do Lens based image stabilization which is what C**** uses. Or no workaround for the patent on this one. Just a guess though. Optio A series have SR. Those are the only Optios with SR.

01-07-2009, 04:00 AM	#39
inuafrj Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Philippines Posts: 18	Originally posted by thibs Optio A series have SR. Those are the only Optios with SR. OOoops.. Sorry, My bad didn't see that one. Thanks!

01-07-2009, 04:24 AM	#40
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	The P70 looks like a very compact camera. Maybe there is no room for "standard" SR?

01-07-2009, 04:53 AM	#41
NewRsoul Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 81	It is a space thing? I mean those Optio's are so small, and you'd have to have room for the plates carrying the coils, the sensor mounted on the magnet pcb and movement space in between? The canon p&s with IS seem thicker?

01-07-2009, 05:17 AM	#42
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	wow, the P70 is gorgeous! and it has an SMC lens with 28mm to boot. well done Pentax. oh and it comes in white. hello apple fans, meet your new camera. http://www.pentaximaging.com/digital-camera/Optio_P70_-_White/

01-07-2009, 05:55 AM	#43
Buddha Jones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Charlotte, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,587	I love the color line-up! Hopefully this will help generate some revenue for the company.

01-07-2009, 06:10 AM	#44
Mike Cash Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Japan Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,950	Originally posted by mithrandir We are all going to be so mad when Pentax comes out with the next big one and we buy it . . . only to find the real next big one comes out the following year. Who needs to wait a whole year? Just wait until about 15 minutes after a new DSLR is released and Ogl will start a thread moaning about its shortcomings and speculating/lecturing on what the next year's release will be.

01-07-2009, 10:34 AM	#45
GaryM Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Montclair, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 426	Originally posted by Mike Cash Who needs to wait a whole year? Just wait until about 15 minutes after a new DSLR is released and Ogl will start a thread moaning about its shortcomings and speculating/lecturing on what the next year's release will be. Sure, Ogl is the only one who will do that, right? When Pentax/Hoya announces the new models, I expect this forum to be at least 75% negative, especially when there is no FF body. I'll be grabbing some popcorn and enjoying the fireworks!