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01-26-2009, 02:46 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
And Pentax is stuck to APS-C; what is the difference?
Leica does not have FF, neither, do they have better? Well let's in 2 years time if there are still around with new sensor format.
Leica S2 is 30x45mm, 37.5mp (ie about 60% larger than FF). The prototype is out and shooting already:

LEICA Camera AG - Aktuell

They appear to have abandoned 4/3, as the Digilux3 isn't really a "current" camera and the u4/3 lenses that Panasonic came out with were not Leica design or co-branding. Though maybe they have something in the pipeline. They just updated the M8 (roughly APC rangefinder) so that will likely remain stable for awhile. Their small sensor cams are all Panasonic builds with Leica tweaks.

01-26-2009, 02:49 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Leica S2 is 30x45mm, 37.5mp (ie about 60% larger than FF). The prototype is out and shooting already:

LEICA Camera AG - Aktuell
Because it is bigger it makes more sense? So what about moaners who say 645 is a bad idea and Pentax shoud go FF?

This is non sense, as usual. One can't chose to consider arguments only if it fits one's idea.
01-26-2009, 02:56 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Because it is bigger it makes more sense? So what about moaners who say 645 is a bad idea and Pentax shoud go FF?

This is non sense, as usual. One can't chose to consider arguments only if it fits one's idea.
what in the world are you talking about?

You seemed to be asking a question about Leica and FF. The S2 is the answer. Does it make sense for Pentax? Doubtful...but I wasn't suggesting it was.

I think that Pentax *should* go dMF. They are still making MF cameras - that would make the most sense to me and fufill a niche. It will not necessarily convince the sheeple who buy Canikon but neither will a Pentax FF.
01-26-2009, 03:00 PM   #34
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No, the S2 is not a good idea, the S2 MAY be a good idea. They might have done better (we'll see in 2 years) if what they chose was beter. But saying Leica can't go FF because they go MF isn't an argument.

Try the same with Pentax. If Pentax announces they do not go FF because they go ahead with 645, 3/4 of the forum will shed in tears because they od not have their little baby Pentax FF.

On a stricly technical point of view, of course: better sensor = better. Reality is different. Look at discussions here. Clear enough IMO.

01-26-2009, 03:06 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
No, the S2 is not a good idea, the S2 MAY be a good idea. They might have done better (we'll see in 2 years) if what they chose was beter. But saying Leica can't go FF because they go MF isn't an argument.
.
wtf? I never said any of those things. Who are you responding to?
01-26-2009, 07:43 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by huqedato Quote
Take a look here and stay back!
And your point? The images are a little soft and there is no side by side comparison. Gee that really makes me want to go out and buy a FF camera.
01-26-2009, 08:00 PM   #37
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I think he was probably being sarcastic, hence the

QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
And your point? The images are a little soft and there is no side by side comparison. Gee that really makes me want to go out and buy a FF camera.
01-26-2009, 09:08 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by cousinsane Quote
I think he was probably being sarcastic, hence the
You're probably right but a few words and an emoticon don't always convey intent.

01-26-2009, 10:37 PM   #39
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I personally burst at the seams at the idea. I'll be able to use my 125 as I use my 85 currently, my 85 as I use the Nokton (58) and the Nokton will become a more interesting normal. I'll capture all the swirly goodness the Biotar offers and capture the strong edges my money bought with the 25mm (without it 'becoming' a 37.5) Distagon.

Due to being able to stand closer to my subjects, given the extra image captured, I'll be able to work in a shallower depth of field if I choose and thus increase - bokeh. Its a magic word to me. One small change to a sensor makes a lot of interesting changes to everything I shoot.

On the other hand, the K20 is the only DSLR that offers the selection of manual lenses, at the price it does, with the SR in the body and live view to take full advantage. Very sweet.

Sony A900 has the SR, the MP, and a top notch view finder (so I've read), but no chance of any of the newer manual Zeiss and Voigts to take advantage of the inbody SR (and no live view). Existing AF Zeiss are paid for at a serious premium for a feature that actually detracts from how I'd use it.

Canon 5D mkII has almost equal MP to A900, decent noise performance and yes... movie mode if you care about that. For me that means perhaps missing shots while shooting movies, leading to a new harddrive array and more software. Good lens selection in the manual primes catagory though.

Nikon has the D700 which has the best selection of glass in my field of interest next to Pentax, best ISO - which goes some ways to making up for no inbody SR, but at a penalty. IQ directly compared to K20 wants to be tested. It would be nice to have smaller files for a change though. Currently my secret fantasy.

Ideally, I'd love a K20 with a full sensor. Change nothing except the sensor and I'd pay the full price of admission to the full frame catagory, 3k.
01-27-2009, 12:19 AM   #40
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Kelly, that is a very interesting take on FF from you. Very interesting in deed.

Well, we just have to dream on
01-27-2009, 03:27 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
wtf? I never said any of those things. Who are you responding to?
Not you personnaly but this is the general consensus on this forum it seems.
I never said I was directing at you personaly. I was responding to your comments, nothing more.

So in the end, there are 3 brands with one or more 'FF' bodies: Canon, Nikon, and Sony and five brands : Panasonic, Leica, Fuji, Pentax and Olympus which do not have any. Period.

Some have chosen alternatives (being bigger or smaller than FF) and so has Pentax. Pentax is exactly in the same situation as others four brands as far as 'should we go FF or not?'.
01-27-2009, 03:37 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by thePiRaTE!! Quote
I personally burst at the seams at the idea. I'll be able to use my 125 as I use my 85 currently, my 85 as I use the Nokton (58) and the Nokton will become a more interesting normal. I'll capture all the swirly goodness the Biotar offers and capture the strong edges my money bought with the 25mm (without it 'becoming' a 37.5) Distagon.

Due to being able to stand closer to my subjects, given the extra image captured, I'll be able to work in a shallower depth of field if I choose and thus increase - bokeh. Its a magic word to me. One small change to a sensor makes a lot of interesting changes to everything I shoot.

On the other hand, the K20 is the only DSLR that offers the selection of manual lenses, at the price it does, with the SR in the body and live view to take full advantage. Very sweet.

Sony A900 has the SR, the MP, and a top notch view finder (so I've read), but no chance of any of the newer manual Zeiss and Voigts to take advantage of the inbody SR (and no live view). Existing AF Zeiss are paid for at a serious premium for a feature that actually detracts from how I'd use it.

Canon 5D mkII has almost equal MP to A900, decent noise performance and yes... movie mode if you care about that. For me that means perhaps missing shots while shooting movies, leading to a new harddrive array and more software. Good lens selection in the manual primes catagory though.

Nikon has the D700 which has the best selection of glass in my field of interest next to Pentax, best ISO - which goes some ways to making up for no inbody SR, but at a penalty. IQ directly compared to K20 wants to be tested. It would be nice to have smaller files for a change though. Currently my secret fantasy.

Ideally, I'd love a K20 with a full sensor. Change nothing except the sensor and I'd pay the full price of admission to the full frame catagory, 3k.
You have some very specific lens choices which really dont apply to many people. I get as much "bokeh" from an APS camera because I can access faster tele lenses for the same money.

A 50 F1.4 is a lot cheaper than an 85 F1.4 last I checked, and has almost the same DOF as a 77 F1.8 would on an FF camera....for much less money.

The 50-135 F2.8 on a K20D provides the same DOF options as a Canon 70-200mm F4 on a 5Dmk2, which is about the same price (in IS mode). The Nikon 70-200 F2.8 gives a stop more DOF but is vastly bigger and more expensive (as is the Canon version). The Sigma 70-200 F2.8 is also much heavier and more expensive than the Pentax.

My FA* 200 F2.8 has the same DOF as a DA* 300 F4 would on an FF camera.

Again, same size and weight. So yes you can get shallower DOF on a FF camera, but only by buying faster long glass which is more expensive and heavier than the APS equivalent.

OK, for wide angle lenses, then its harder to find fast glass. However I use wideangle more for landscape work. In this case, I usually work stopped down and the greater DOF of APS allows me to use apertures which are slightly wider and faster (closer to MTF max) than what I would need on FF. This means sharper, especially in combination with SR.

So sorry but I dont buy this DOF argument at all.
01-27-2009, 05:56 AM   #43
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Steve, I have a lot of M42 primes I want to use on the format they were intended for. And I also want a bigger, brighter viewfinder for better manual focusing.

Two simple reasons why I want FF.

You do know that APS-C is just an intermediate step to FF? APS-C does exist only because it is cheaper than FF, but for me APS-C is more and more uninteresting when the cheapest FF cameras have reached the price level of the first APS-C cameras.
01-27-2009, 06:42 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Some have chosen alternatives (being bigger or smaller than FF) and so has Pentax. Pentax is exactly in the same situation as others four brands as far as 'should we go FF or not?'.
Most recently I was shown an interesting option for people with cold nerves, strong heart and flexible fingers. One can replace mounts on K-mount lenses (I was shown an example with FA 31 ltd here (Russian)) and use them with sensible limitations on Canon bodies. Further, I asked this person few questions and they indicated that the operation was completely reversible.

Frankly, gentlemen, I don't understand this argument - stay with APC-S because FF will not give you anything to your photography. Sounds like a rather lame excuse Pentax' lack of ability or lack of decision to produce FF bodies.
01-27-2009, 07:17 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
And Pentax is stuck to APS-C; what is the difference?
Leica does not have FF, neither, do they have better? Well let's in 2 years time if there are still around with new sensor format.
Leica is not doing FF because they have no access to a FF sensor that can beat Nikon and Canon, all they can buy is the noisy Sony sensor.

They are probably a couple years away from being brought out by a big corperation again.
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