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01-27-2009, 07:17 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
Sounds like a rather lame excuse Pentax' lack of ability or lack of decision to produce FF bodies.
Well, i would ask you - what's the lame excuse of Coca-cola not making beer?
Or Whiskey?
Or Ferrari making SUVs?
It's a company decision and strategy and whatever we talk it won't change it.


01-27-2009, 07:23 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
Most recently I was shown an interesting option for people with cold nerves, strong heart and flexible fingers. One can replace mounts on K-mount lenses (I was shown an example with FA 31 ltd here (Russian)) and use them with sensible limitations on Canon bodies. Further, I asked this person few questions and they indicated that the operation was completely reversible.

Frankly, gentlemen, I don't understand this argument - stay with APC-S because FF will not give you anything to your photography. Sounds like a rather lame excuse Pentax' lack of ability or lack of decision to produce FF bodies.
What I don't understand is people constantly wanting to have Pentax produce a $3000 body that only a few of us Pentax users will buy. Bad business sense on Pentax's part. I'll be honest with you. I'm staying with APS-C because I DON'T have the budget for FF. You can harp all you can about how YOU will buy a Pentax FF DSLR if available, but would you also pick up the slack for the rest of us who won't buy it at a high price point? Say, a couple thousand FF DSLRs? If you will be nice enough to do so, please send an e-mail to Pentax pronto and provide details on how you'll make your downpayment. Maybe then they'll be moved to make an FF DSLR that is sure to sell a couple thousand units from the get-go.

Realize that most of the remaining customers Pentax has are either those that simply love their Pentax lens collection and want to use them for the mount it was originally intended to be used with, or those who saw value with the brand and didn't want to spend thousands of dollars to get IS-enabled glass to cover a good focal length range (say, 28mm to 300mm) when they could make do with manual focusing and cheaper lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Steve, I have a lot of M42 primes I want to use on the format they were intended for. And I also want a bigger, brighter viewfinder for better manual focusing.

Two simple reasons why I want FF.

You do know that APS-C is just an intermediate step to FF? APS-C does exist only because it is cheaper than FF, but for me APS-C is more and more uninteresting when the cheapest FF cameras have reached the price level of the first APS-C cameras.
Well, that price of the first APS-C cameras are still high for the rest of us poorer citizens of the world, which is why the DSLR realm have had to wait for the 300D for it to start to reach mass consumption.

I'll be moved to go for an FF DSLR in the future when Sony makes one for the current going price of a K200D and Pentax still hasn't got one by that time. I don't want to have to pay for IS when perfectly good Minolta lenses can be had for cheap.

Just to lighten things up a bit, M42 glass was intended for the 135 format, not FF sensors, if we really will be strict about technicalities.
01-27-2009, 07:33 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
Well, that price of the first APS-C cameras are still high for the rest of us poorer citizens of the world, which is why the DSLR realm have had to wait for the 300D for it to start to reach mass consumption.
It's all about our perception of the price of certain goods. If you calculate the original price of the Spotmatic to today's prices then you'll be in for a big surprise. People had to work several months to be able to afford a new Asahi Pentax Spotmatic. Currently, you'll have to work as long or even less for a FF dSLR.

QuoteQuote:
Just to lighten things up a bit, M42 glass was intended for the 135 format, not FF sensors, if we really will be strict about technicalities.
Of course. But they work damn well on my K20D and I suspect they will work also well on the 5D. There may be problems with darkened corners but I don't mind that in the least.
01-27-2009, 07:34 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by ibk Quote
Well, i would ask you - what's the lame excuse of Coca-cola not making beer?
Or Whiskey?
Or Ferrari making SUVs?
It's a company decision and strategy and whatever we talk it won't change it.
I pray you look here, kind sir:
Ferrari SUV | Auto Express News | News | Auto Express

In Israel the plant that pours Coca Cola to bottles also produces one of the local beer brands. No Whiskey though.

I completely agree with you on your last statement. It is however also true that the number of "Leaving Pentax for FF (put your favorite of those three who do produce FF), selling all my Pentax gear" messages in the Market Place branch has increased significantly.


Last edited by Boris; 01-27-2009 at 07:45 AM.
01-27-2009, 07:42 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
What I don't understand is people constantly wanting to have Pentax produce a $3000 body that only a few of us Pentax users will buy. Bad business sense on Pentax's part. I'll be honest with you. I'm staying with APS-C because I DON'T have the budget for FF. You can harp all you can about how YOU will buy a Pentax FF DSLR if available, but would you also pick up the slack for the rest of us who won't buy it at a high price point? Say, a couple thousand FF DSLRs?
I understand you and share your view to some extent. It is of course valid view and as such has all the rights to exist.

Personally, I have 4 limited lenses (21, 31, 43, 77) and A 50/1.2 which covers all my photographic needs, or, say, 95% of them. I also have Tamron 28-75/2.8 which I may (or may not) replace with FA 24-90/3.5-4.5 which I am waiting for to arrive. I do like the way my limited lenses and that 50/1.2 render images. OTOH, I've absolutely no sentiments about Pentax bodies. I had *istD and now I have K10D. I don't find any of them to be particularly remarkable. They do their job and not fantastically so.

I would gladly buy Pentax FF DSLR as it seems now that the market is starting the price wars on "affordable" (i.e. less than USD 5,000) FF bodies. For consumers it would be quite right a time to want Pentax join the game. Pentax chooses not to.

Eventually (depending on each one's patience and other circumstances) many enough people will go Nikon, Canon or Sony and Pentax will really suffer the consequences.

Yes, I can make good photos with my gear, but ever since I had *istD I did not like the tightness of this crop factor. Call me names if you will, but that's my own personal idiosyncrasy.
01-27-2009, 07:54 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
What I don't understand is people constantly wanting to have Pentax produce a $3000 body that only a few of us Pentax users will buy.
What I don't understand is what Pentax can possibly do to make $3000 FF body, when both Canon and Nikon can produce FF bodies that cost $1700(5D), $2500(5D2), and $2200(D700) respectively. I've herd this lame argument about $3000 Pentax FF bodies so many times over the last year, that I am just wondering where this number came from?

I remember times when Canon Digital Rebel was $1200 and Pentax surprised us all with istDS camera that cost just over $800 and was BETTER then Digital Rebel in many respects from the bigger sensor to a better viewfinder, better build quality, better kit lens, more functions, etc. I bought DS as soon as it hit shelves and never regret it, it was a clear winner indeed.

Now, why do you people think almost 6 years later Pentax FF camera should cost 20%-40% more then Canon or Nikon FF camera? Is there any logic in this $3000 number that a lot of people here are mumbling about? Where did you get this number? And please don't use Sony as an a example, the management of Sony is living in LaLa lend for many years now.
01-27-2009, 09:03 AM   #52
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You can cut out the 1700$ 5D, it's very old (a new camera has some R&D to recover). And FYI it's 2000$ at bhphotovideo.
5DMkII is 2700$; D700 is "only" 2330, due to a 300$ instant rebate.

What do you think a Pentax full frame, top of the line camera would cost? Mind you, I bet we won't see a 12MP sensor on it, and it will include many newly developed components.
01-27-2009, 09:17 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You can cut out the 1700$ 5D, it's very old (a new camera has some R&D to recover). And FYI it's 2000$ at bhphotovideo.
5DMkII is 2700$; D700 is "only" 2330, due to a 300$ instant rebate.

What do you think a Pentax full frame, top of the line camera would cost? Mind you, I bet we won't see a 12MP sensor on it, and it will include many newly developed components.
I don't know what it would cost, we have enough people guessing on a Crystal Ball here, I am not one of them. I am just trying to understand where this $3000 came from.
Even if I take your numbers for Canon and Nikon as an example, I am not sure why Pentax should be more expensive than competition, when in the past it wasn't, any reasonable explanation?


Last edited by awo425; 01-27-2009 at 09:46 AM.
01-27-2009, 09:41 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
You have some very specific lens choices which really dont apply to many people. I get as much "bokeh" from an APS camera because I can access faster tele lenses for the same money.

A 50 F1.4 is a lot cheaper than an 85 F1.4 last I checked, and has almost the same DOF as a 77 F1.8 would on an FF camera....for much less money.

The 50-135 F2.8 on a K20D provides the same DOF options as a Canon 70-200mm F4 on a 5Dmk2, which is about the same price (in IS mode). The Nikon 70-200 F2.8 gives a stop more DOF but is vastly bigger and more expensive (as is the Canon version). The Sigma 70-200 F2.8 is also much heavier and more expensive than the Pentax.

My FA* 200 F2.8 has the same DOF as a DA* 300 F4 would on an FF camera.

Again, same size and weight. So yes you can get shallower DOF on a FF camera, but only by buying faster long glass which is more expensive and heavier than the APS equivalent.

OK, for wide angle lenses, then its harder to find fast glass. However I use wideangle more for landscape work. In this case, I usually work stopped down and the greater DOF of APS allows me to use apertures which are slightly wider and faster (closer to MTF max) than what I would need on FF. This means sharper, especially in combination with SR.

So sorry but I dont buy this DOF argument at all.

I wish I was as satisfied with the crop format, it would save me a lot of thinking lately, lol.

Ok, using our logics, an example then. We have a sparrow on a branch. Lets say on the K20, it would frame up nicely with a DA*200. In order to frame it as nicely with a FF, we're going to require a 300 is what you're saying if I have understood you correctly and thats larger, more expensive... and true. My argument was that you could work closer to the subject with a FF (which you would need to do to fill the frame) so as you close in to the bird with the same 200mm lens, you fill the frame with more detail while your DoF continues to get shallower. But its a bird, lets say in our example a fixed working distance required.

The FF shooter is now using the 300 as you suggest. Its higher magnification power is captured entirely on the larger sensor (assuming for the sake of argument that pixel density is roughly equal) so you still get a much 'larger' sparrow (more detail captured) similar to having used the 200 from closer in and because you are working closer to the MFD of the 300 than of the 200 at equal working distance - you get shallower DoF.

No matter how you slice it, if framing is equal, you're always going to have a shallower DoF with the larger sensor either by virture of working closer to your subject or by using a longer focal length lens closer to its MFD.

On the size/weight side of things, to be fair we must consider the opposite side of the focal range. I wouldn't need to buy a 14/2.8 for example, I could buy 21/2.8 instead. Instead of the 31, I buy the 43, etc, etc.

Further, if you wanted to keep the smaller lenses and your current working distance just as with APS-C, I'd suggest either the A900 or 5dII. Given our above scenario, you could use the 200 just as with the crop format from an equal working distance and end up with a lot of moose pasture around the side of your bird. With the extra MP, you could manually crop what was not required of the final image. Granted in doing so you lose the advantage of having started with 20+ MP, you end up with something approaching what you started with in the same crop area as we're working with on the K20. Not ideal of course, but if one really wanted, I think one could have all the same size/weight/cost savings of APS-C. This isn't meant to be practical, but its possible, though I don't think any person alive would buy the FF to neuter it in such a way.

But having said all of this, I must state that my logic was only ever meant to explain my current frame of mind regarding the FF market. The logic only applied to my choice, given my preference for shooting and wasn't meant as a general recommendation. Each will spend what they want in this regard - I know where I'll be spending next, but I hope its on a Pentax.

Last edited by thePiRaTE!!; 01-27-2009 at 09:54 AM.
01-27-2009, 09:46 AM   #55
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The FF crave is becoming cooler in the magazines.

In an issue from this month where review lens lineups for 5DmkII, D700 and Alpha900. In a comment about, the 24-70/2.8, the journalist remarked that even if the combo with D700 produce superb results, the combo D300 with 17-55mm f/2.8 was producing nearl same quality in most situations. The advantage being to D700 in low light. The combo D300 / 17-55mm f/2.8 is much lighter and smaller (the magazine called the D700 " a D300 on steroid")

To me the choice between APSC and FF is at the moment somehow like between 35mm and Medium Format. The quality of images is better with MF but you have to cope with the size and the weight.

Does everybody need ultra high pixel count or low light performance ?

With FF comes a more confortable viewfinder, but to me, this is another issue, it is perfectly possible to get a "FF" viewfinder on an APSC body. And that would be a pro feature as well.

Best regards,
Guillaume Helary
01-27-2009, 10:51 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
I don't know what it would cost, we have enough people guessing on a Crystal Ball here, I am not one of them. I am just trying to understand where this $3000 came from.
Even if I take your numbers for Canon and Nikon as an example, I am not sure why Pentax should be more expensive than competition, when in the past it wasn't, any reasonable explanation?
I'm not sure why it should be cheaper. So let's agree on ~2700$, maybe less, maybe more.
And yes, I will use the Sony A900 (3000$, street price) as an example - why not? It's only 300$ from the 5DMkII, it's not reusing nowhere as much technology as the Canon and (at least on paper) is a superior camera.
01-27-2009, 10:57 AM   #57
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$3,000 is likely more likely than last year.

All Nikon camera equiptment is going up 18% on Feb 1st 2009. The D700 msrp goes from $2999.99 to $3699.99. If you follow prices like I do you will have already noticed nikon lenses going up $40, $50, $60, $200 already. D3 is up $350 already. Items are out of stock whether they really are or not to take advantage of new higher costs next week.

Canon is likely to raise to, however I know for a fact the nikon increases are happening, its a done deal confirmed to me by the local store after I told them about it happening in Canada, UK, Norway.

Seeing this happen to Nikon kit from November 2008 foward I acted & bought a D700 and 14-24mm 2.8 on Jan 14th 2009. Using a dealer like KEH who immediatey raised their prices the full ammount on Jan 15th I save $800 on my purchase that arrived the following day.

As pentax waited, the prices for full frame are becoming more expensive. As Pentax waits my Dollars are devalued so I acted while they were still dollars and not .75 to .80 cents.

At this point I own Two Canon 5D full frame. One Nikon D700 full frame. This really is due to the fact I grew tired of the delays Pentax had back before 200mm SDM and 300mm SDM launched. You know when they stopped FA lens production to then take 4 years to move from Japan to VietNam. Oh yeah and the insane money they started K20D at: $1,299. In Feb 2008 just 3 weeks after K20D announced I began buying brand new eos f2.8 glass. As time past the Nikon D3 was joined by much more affordable D700 and once D700 price made sense to me: $2,319 free delivery I added it too.

Still I'll keep my Pentax items but I have no interest in pentax logo for full frame now dslr. I got that covered, ALL Really Thanks To Pentax Delays, manufacturing facilities move and then Hoya Ceo and all the discouraging things he said prior to takeover of pentax brand and since April 1st 2008 takeover.

K20D is a great camera, and I have no regrets adding it in November for $689 and free delivery. If I learned anything with Pentax its wait 6-9 months for a better price. My money only spends ONCE. At $1,299 its was "The Final Straw" and a few weeks later I bought two new lenses & I when bought my Canon 5D brand new for $1,750, with free delivery K20D was still sitting at $1,299 plus delivery. So I essentially bought a full frame eos dslr for $450 more than a K20D.

So Long Story Short, you want full frame you're down to the last days before the price increases fully hit... or wait for Pentax to provide & in meantime enjoy what you've got.







QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
I don't know what it would cost, we have enough people guessing on a Crystal Ball here, I am not one of them. I am just trying to understand where this $3000 came from.
Even if I take your numbers for Canon and Nikon as an example, I am not sure why Pentax should be more expensive than competition, when in the past it wasn't, any reasonable explanation?
01-27-2009, 11:03 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by thePiRaTE!! Quote

The FF shooter is now using the 300 as you suggest. Its higher magnification power is captured entirely on the larger sensor (assuming for the sake of argument that pixel density is roughly equal) so you still get a much 'larger' sparrow (more detail captured) similar to having used the 200 from closer in and because you are working closer to the MFD of the 300 than of the 200 at equal working distance - you get shallower DoF.
Well, I don't think it's working this way.

More detail is captured if there are more pixel, not because the area of the sensor is larger. A 14 MP K20D (APS-C) has more resolution of a 12 MP D700 (FF). Just, the larger sensor makes the quality of the capture better, with less noise, more dinamic range etc.
01-27-2009, 11:11 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
I pray you look here, kind sir:
Ferrari SUV | Auto Express News | News | Auto Express

In Israel the plant that pours Coca Cola to bottles also produces one of the local beer brands. No Whiskey though.

I completely agree with you on your last statement. It is however also true that the number of "Leaving Pentax for FF (put your favorite of those three who do produce FF), selling all my Pentax gear" messages in the Market Place branch has increased significantly.
Thanks for the link!
I, personally don't need Full Frame, but lets hope the "Now Ferrari plans an SUV!" translates to "Now Pentax plans an FF camera" and everybody will be happy. At least we will know that soon. 1 month to go.

Cheers!
01-27-2009, 11:12 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm not sure why it should be cheaper.

Well, if you want to price it more than a 5DMK 2 it MUST be significantly better then 5DMK 2 to sell, I am not buying another K10D with all it's quirks, even FF version of it.

So let's agree on ~2700$, maybe less, maybe more.

Hey, it's only $300 here, $300 there, who cares, right?

And yes, I will use the Sony A900 (3000$, street price) as an example - why not? It's only 300$ from the 5DMkII, it's not reusing nowhere as much technology as the Canon and (at least on paper) is a superior camera.
Is there are a waiting list for a $3000 (street price) A900?
This is why I think it is not a good example. 5DMK 2 have a waiting list of 2 month and people are raving about this camera, not on paper.

Sony has a history of creating overpriced gadgets from the SONY Minidisk technology to Sony VAIO VGN-UX series and SONY PDAs and many more that were doomed and now forgotten because of the price tags they put on them.
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