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01-27-2009, 11:33 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I save $800 on my purchase that arrived the following day.

As pentax waited, the prices for full frame are becoming more expensive. As Pentax waits my Dollars are devalued so I acted while they were still dollars and not .75 to .80 cents.

snip

As time past the Nikon D3 was joined by much more affordable D700 and once D700 price made sense to me: $2,319 free delivery I added it too.

snip

K20D is a great camera, and I have no regrets adding it in November for $689 and free delivery.

snip

So I essentially bought a full frame eos dslr for $450 more than a K20D.
Well, seems to me you care more about price and getting a "deal" than really worrying about what your camera can do. But different strokes...

01-27-2009, 11:43 AM   #62
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awo425: You didn't said: what is the price you are willing to pay for a FF camera, and what features should it have?

Don't forget, we are comparing a list price (for the illusory Pentax FF) with a street price (5DMkII). What I'm saying is that, all other things being equal, the former should be at least equal with the latter; no, I don't think Pentax would launch an "inferior" FF camera compared to the Canon so I don't see any reason why the launch price should be lower than 2700$.
For further reference, see the launch price for the K20D.

300$ is well within error margin when we're talking about cameras we don't even know if they will be made. Put a better construction (weather sealed&such), 100% viewfinder, faster electronics and the necessity to recover R&D costs at the expense of the pentaxians that would kill (read: pay) for such a camera - and a launch price of 3000$ is not that outrageous.

And btw, having a 2 months waiting list only means the 5DMkII is too cheap
01-27-2009, 11:46 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
Well, I don't think it's working this way.

More detail is captured if there are more pixel, not because the area of the sensor is larger. A 14 MP K20D (APS-C) has more resolution of a 12 MP D700 (FF). Just, the larger sensor makes the quality of the capture better, with less noise, more dinamic range etc.

Please read the whole sentence sir -

QuoteOriginally posted by thePiRaTE!!:

The FF shooter is now using the 300 as you suggest. Its higher magnification power is captured entirely on the larger sensor (assuming for the sake of argument that pixel density is roughly equal) so you still get a much 'larger' sparrow (more detail captured) similar to having used the 200 from closer in and because you are working closer to the MFD of the 300 than of the 200 at equal working distance - you get shallower DoF.
01-27-2009, 11:48 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
All Nikon camera equiptment is going up 18% on Feb 1st 2009. The D700 msrp goes from $2999.99 to $3699.99. If you follow prices like I do you will have already noticed nikon lenses going up $40, $50, $60, $200 already. D3 is up $350 already. Items are out of stock whether they really are or not to take advantage of new higher costs next week.

Canon is likely to raise to, however I know for a fact the nikon increases are happening, its a done deal confirmed to me by the local store after I told them about it happening in Canada, UK, Norway.

Seeing this happen to Nikon kit from November 2008 foward I acted & bought a D700 and 14-24mm 2.8 on Jan 14th 2009. Using a dealer like KEH who immediatey raised their prices the full ammount on Jan 15th I save $800 on my purchase that arrived the following day.

As pentax waited, the prices for full frame are becoming more expensive. As Pentax waits my Dollars are devalued so I acted while they were still dollars and not .75 to .80 cents.

At this point I own Two Canon 5D full frame. One Nikon D700 full frame. This really is due to the fact I grew tired of the delays Pentax had back before 200mm SDM and 300mm SDM launched. You know when they stopped FA lens production to then take 4 years to move from Japan to VietNam. Oh yeah and the insane money they started K20D at: $1,299. In Feb 2008 just 3 weeks after K20D announced I began buying brand new eos f2.8 glass. As time past the Nikon D3 was joined by much more affordable D700 and once D700 price made sense to me: $2,319 free delivery I added it too.

Still I'll keep my Pentax items but I have no interest in pentax logo for full frame now dslr. I got that covered, ALL Really Thanks To Pentax Delays, manufacturing facilities move and then Hoya Ceo and all the discouraging things he said prior to takeover of pentax brand and since April 1st 2008 takeover.

K20D is a great camera, and I have no regrets adding it in November for $689 and free delivery. If I learned anything with Pentax its wait 6-9 months for a better price. My money only spends ONCE. At $1,299 its was "The Final Straw" and a few weeks later I bought two new lenses & I when bought my Canon 5D brand new for $1,750, with free delivery K20D was still sitting at $1,299 plus delivery. So I essentially bought a full frame eos dslr for $450 more than a K20D.

So Long Story Short, you want full frame you're down to the last days before the price increases fully hit... or wait for Pentax to provide & in meantime enjoy what you've got.
I wonder if it wouldn't be better that you include the stories of your purchase (with price, rebates and dates) in your sig. For sure that pops up anyway in almost any post you write so it will save you some time which would be better used to curse that evil Pentax that cannot send you a case full of DA* lenses with 99% instant rebate. And of course free delivery!!!!!!

Radu

P.S. A joke about how you'd settle for a lesser rebate (98%?) or you'd pay the delivery won't do I am afraid.

01-27-2009, 12:06 PM   #65
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That was a lot of dollars ago

QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
It's all about our perception of the price of certain goods. If you calculate the original price of the Spotmatic to today's prices then you'll be in for a big surprise. People had to work several months to be able to afford a new Asahi Pentax Spotmatic. Currently, you'll have to work as long or even less for a FF dSLR.
For those who weren't around or need reminding, I bought my Asahi Spotmatic in Japan for USD $100 when it was selling in the US, as the Bell and Howell I think, for $300. My kit of body, 50mm 1.4, 28mmm 3.5, and 135mm 3.5 was about $300 total, and would have been $700-$1,000 in the US.

That was a pile of money forty years ago. I could afford that gear only because A.) I bought it in a small shop in Yokosuka at the USD $300 local price based on 360 yen/dollar and B.) I was a Navy journalist who was quite single. That amount still represented three months' worth of my Navy allowance for off-base housing rental for a non-com.

The inflation rate in those forty years is about 500%. I checked. That means you can multiply my "cheap" $300 investment by 6 = $1,800 in today's dollars or at least $5,000 if purchased at US prices.

PS: I still have that gear and will gladly part with it for a mere quarter of what I paid (after correcting for inflation). And throw in free shipping to US and Canada! And two rolls of Tri-X that expired in the first Reagan administration.
01-27-2009, 12:28 PM   #66
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Just letting you all know, The Clock is Ticking, Your Money is Deflating...

No problems here

I spent lots of time wishing & wondering if Pentax would offer full frame K Mount, from 2005 thru early 2008.

I suppose like people in the past wished for 645D since 2002,03,04,05,06,07,08 and 2009.

This is yet another: Will full frame K Mount happen thread?

And when will it happen thread?

And How much will it cost thread?

You don't have to cash out of a system to add another. Pentax taught me that. Ned sells pentax & he buys & brags about his Panasonic Red Dot leica logo'd point & shoot. He can do this and most people here are cool with him doing so. Thats the lesson! Learn from him. You can own a variety of brands to achieve your imaging goals.

You want full frame today? Buy a Canon or a Nikon or a Sony and a lens or two now before the yen domination of all currencies hits the marketplace or wait for PMA 2009 to see what pentax has to offer up towards a full frame fantasy system. Or better yet wait for Photokina 2010...

As I said I still love K20D, but I no longer need to wait around for Pentax to provide full frame dslr at an affordable price point: $1,750, $2,050, $2,319...

In the meantime there will be dozens more Pentax full frame threads in the weeks and months to come. What more is there to say about a product pentax publically said is not happening?

All I can say is if you want full frame dslr, then add another system to your bag of tools or wait and do so later for a higher out of pocket cost.




QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
All Nikon camera equiptment is going up 18% on Feb 1st 2009. The D700 msrp goes from $2999.99 to $3699.99. If you follow prices like I do you will have already noticed nikon lenses going up $40, $50, $60, $200 already. D3 is up $350 already. Items are out of stock whether they really are or not to take advantage of new higher costs next week.

Canon is likely to raise to, however I know for a fact the nikon increases are happening, its a done deal confirmed to me by the local store after I told them about it happening in Canada, UK, Norway.

Seeing this happen to Nikon kit from November 2008 foward I acted & bought a D700 and 14-24mm 2.8 on Jan 14th 2009. Using a dealer like KEH who immediatey raised their prices the full ammount on Jan 15th I save $800 on my purchase that arrived the following day.

As pentax waited, the prices for full frame are becoming more expensive. As Pentax waits my Dollars are devalued so I acted while they were still dollars and not .75 to .80 cents.

At this point I own Two Canon 5D full frame. One Nikon D700 full frame. This really is due to the fact I grew tired of the delays Pentax had back before 200mm SDM and 300mm SDM launched. You know when they stopped FA lens production to then take 4 years to move from Japan to VietNam. Oh yeah and the insane money they started K20D at: $1,299. In Feb 2008 just 3 weeks after K20D announced I began buying brand new eos f2.8 glass. As time past the Nikon D3 was joined by much more affordable D700 and once D700 price made sense to me: $2,319 free delivery I added it too.

Still I'll keep my Pentax items but I have no interest in pentax logo for full frame now dslr. I got that covered, ALL Really Thanks To Pentax Delays, manufacturing facilities move and then Hoya Ceo and all the discouraging things he said prior to takeover of pentax brand and since April 1st 2008 takeover.

K20D is a great camera, and I have no regrets adding it in November for $689 and free delivery. If I learned anything with Pentax its wait 6-9 months for a better price. My money only spends ONCE. At $1,299 its was "The Final Straw" and a few weeks later I bought two new lenses & I when bought my Canon 5D brand new for $1,750, with free delivery K20D was still sitting at $1,299 plus delivery. So I essentially bought a full frame eos dslr for $450 more than a K20D.

So Long Story Short, you want full frame you're down to the last days before the price increases fully hit... or wait for Pentax to provide & in meantime enjoy what you've got.
01-27-2009, 01:18 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
awo425: You didn't said: what is the price you are willing to pay for a FF camera, and what features should it have?

Don't forget, we are comparing a list price (for the illusory Pentax FF) with a street price (5DMkII). What I'm saying is that, all other things being equal, the former should be at least equal with the latter; no, I don't think Pentax would launch an "inferior" FF camera compared to the Canon so I don't see any reason why the launch price should be lower than 2700$.
For further reference, see the launch price for the K20D.

300$ is well within error margin when we're talking about cameras we don't even know if they will be made. Put a better construction (weather sealed&such), 100% viewfinder, faster electronics and the necessity to recover R&D costs at the expense of the pentaxians that would kill (read: pay) for such a camera - and a launch price of 3000$ is not that outrageous.

And btw, having a 2 months waiting list only means the 5DMkII is too cheap
I've been saying it before on this forum

(must have)
FF sensor 12mp and up.
$2000 street price
Acceptable noise levels up to ISO 6400
Consistent AF and Metering.
3 or 3.5 FPS is ok with me.
AF Micro adjustment menu for more then one lens like on K20D
DR compatible to 5D and D700
98% Pentaprizm VF


(Nice to have)
Dedicated AF assistance lamp (I am sure, I am not going to get it)
Custom WB button like on istD
Move drive mode to button instead of menu like on istD

Don't care about weather sealing, if they can not do it on FF camera for a cost reasons, it will be fine with me.
Don't care about SR if I can use ISO 1600, 3200, 6400 I actually prefer SR to go away if this is not possible or difficult to implement on FF.

That's about it for key features.

"And btw, having a 2 months waiting list only means the 5DMkII is too cheap"
Nope in my world it means they want to sell it, make profit and move on with research, development, etc. Not keep it on the shelves for month, like some other companies do and then complain that they don't have money on R&D and dealers and chain stores refuse to work with them.

Last edited by awo425; 01-27-2009 at 01:34 PM.
01-27-2009, 02:26 PM   #68
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OK then, buy a 5D; it's the only 2000$ FF DSLR you'll see for a while. And it's only what, 3.5 years old?
And probably that's why Pentax don't have a FF DSLR: people aren't willing to pay for it.
OTOH, I may be persuaded to pay 1500-2000$ for a very nice, fully featured, high quality less-than-FF Pentax camera.

01-27-2009, 02:31 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
OK then, buy a 5D; it's the only 2000$ FF DSLR you'll see for a while. And it's only what, 3.5 years old?

Thanks, I can do it at any time. Any tips on using my FF Pentax lenses and flash on it?

And probably that's why Pentax don't have a FF DSLR: people aren't willing to pay for it.
OTOH, I may be persuaded to pay 1500-2000$ for a very nice, fully featured, high quality less-than-FF Pentax camera.
BTW, I can sell you k20D for $1500 if you are willing to buy it. It is "a very nice, fully featured, high quality less-than-FF Pentax camera", isn't it?

Last edited by awo425; 01-27-2009 at 02:42 PM.
01-27-2009, 02:46 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
BTW, I can sell you k20D for $1500 if you are willing to buy it. It is "a very nice, fully featured, high quality less-than-FF Pentax camera", isn't it?
I bought my K20d at the original price with no regret. At that time it was worth it imho. While you can play with hindsight all you want, at some point you have to act. You look at what is available *now* and either buy or don't buy. You can sit and wait for something else to come out, and of course it will be faster/better/cheaper (maybe not cheaper though). But I'd rather be shooting pictures than scouring the interwebs trying to save a few bucks. My time is worth something, and "the deal" just isn't my highest priority. For some people though, "the deal" is the most important aspect of a purchase, and others just collect gear and enjoy the spec sheets. Nothing wrong with that, but for some (many?) it isn't what this is all about.

If the K30d comes out and *significantly* improves on the K20d, I would likely buy it at $1500 (FF or not). I viewed the K20d as a significant improvement on the K10d (which I didn't care for). Of course now the devil is in the details of what is "significant." And that is up to the individual to decide.
01-27-2009, 02:56 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
I completely agree with you on your last statement. It is however also true that the number of "Leaving Pentax for FF (put your favorite of those three who do produce FF), selling all my Pentax gear" messages in the Market Place branch has increased significantly.
Sure but will any bigger sensor render those guys better photographs?
This 'I have a bigger sensor than you' is smoke and mirrors thingie.

I agree however, that on a marketing PoV, FF would help Pentax. Maybe.
01-27-2009, 03:23 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
BTW, I can sell you k20D for $1500 if you are willing to buy it. It is "a very nice, fully featured, high quality less-than-FF Pentax camera", isn't it?
You can try, if you really want to look silly (like your "argument").

nostatic, unfortunately many improvements were not advertised - you have to use a K20D to find out about them.
01-27-2009, 03:49 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
nostatic, unfortunately many improvements were not advertised - you have to use a K20D to find out about them.
Well, I did - that's why I bought one

The problem with the interwebs is that often opinions are weight equally when they shouldn't be. And subjective "data" gets interpreted as being objective when it isn't. The review sites tend to focus on numbers (often poorly obtained) which in the end are largely meaningless if you can't get the shot. And the reality is that some people can get the shot with an instamatic while others can't get the shot with a Leica.

imho people underestimate the value of user interface and related design. And they ignore aesthetic. But companies can exist by excelling in those areas. Apple is an example. Pentax has been (and could be) another. I find the UI on the K20d to be better than any current body Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc has to offer. It isn't perfect, but best of the bunch imho. And the limited primes combine form and function at a very high level.

Those are important considerations. If they can continue to at least keep apace with the other technical aspects they'll be fine. Because there will always be some population of people who "get" aesthetic and usability over specs and focus charts. Neither is necessarily superior, but they are different, and a company that strives for both but can excel in one or the other will usually do ok.
01-27-2009, 04:54 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Steve, I have a lot of M42 primes I want to use on the format they were intended for. And I also want a bigger, brighter viewfinder for better manual focusing.

Two simple reasons why I want FF.

You do know that APS-C is just an intermediate step to FF? APS-C does exist only because it is cheaper than FF, but for me APS-C is more and more uninteresting when the cheapest FF cameras have reached the price level of the first APS-C cameras.
Your M42 lenses were designed to work with film. Why dont you use a film camera? I'm sure Pentax would rather you dump all your old M42 lenses and bought some new glass. That might help fund an FF camera.

And I want a camera on which I can use my APSC lenses at a focal length for which THEY were intended. Is that OK with YOU?

As for APSC being a stopgap, funny stopgap that makes up 98% of the SLR market. If you cant understand the engineering advantages of APSC in a small camera body thats your issue. Pentax will make an FF camera one day when there is a big enough market for it, and they will continue to make APSC in the meantime and for a long time to come. Why does this upset you?

Both formats have pros and cons. Whether you find this uninteresting is not very, er, interesting. Why not just buy an M42 adapter and a Nikon D700 and be happy?
01-27-2009, 05:43 PM   #75
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Given some of the reasoning in this thread, all sensors are just "intermediate steps" to a RED 158x56 sensor.

So p&s is just an intermediate to 4/3 which is an intermediate to APS which is an intermediate to FF which is an intermediate to S2 which is an intermediate to 617 Mysterio Monstro...

OR, they all might be different formats for different price points and different looks/uses.

Naw...just crazy talk. Just a matter of time before the RED chip is the new p&s standard
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