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01-27-2009, 09:16 PM   #31
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Not to add fuel to the fire......

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
"Brand building"? How much was Pentax been mentioned in the blogosphere last quarter vs just this month?

The Porche-Ford F-150 analogy actually is adept. Pentax does not have a "serious" compact. NONE of them shoot raw. For many that is the end of the story right there. Just like Porsche does not make a truck. They make an SUV, but not a truck. So if Ferry Porsche talks about driving his F-150, what is the message? Well, there are a couple. First, he may just like trucks. Second, he may be trying a little viral marketing. Third, he might be trying to gauge interest in a Porsche truck. Fourth, he might not really care what a bunch of people ranting on forums thing. Fifth, perhaps he is trying to influence board members and others wrt roadmaps and strategy.

The bottom line is that only Ned knows what is behind it. My guess is that Occam's Razor applies - he like photography, owns an M6, wanted the ultimate p&s so he bought the Leica. Like most of us, he wanted to share in his excitement. But unlike us, he gets taken to task by armchair executives who call into question his "loyalty" and character.

Hopefully Pentax Japan "gets it" (whatever "it" is), and Ned is happily doing his thing. Certainly more than enough hand-wringing going on in these forums to cover all the execs...
I just wanted to say that this is an excellent post.

01-27-2009, 10:55 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
If I managed Pentax, the American branch would be looking for a new President.

I compare this to one of the Ford family buying a Corvette because Ford doesn't make a similar vehicle.

What a moron!
I just wanted to say this is an excellent post.
01-27-2009, 11:13 PM   #33
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01-27-2009, 11:18 PM   #34
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I just wanted to say that I'm off to Hoogie Boogie Land

YouTube - Complete - Hoogie-Boogie Land

01-28-2009, 04:41 AM   #35
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No argument about how *cool and visionary* is Mr. Bunnell won't change the fact that he bought a PANASONIC not a LEICA camera. Meaning a camera from an extremely dangerous competitor which incidentally just launched the other day a new rugged, waterproof compact camera that seems at least as advanced as our W60: Panasonic unveils DMC-TS1 rugged compact camera: Digital Photography Review. Since W60 doesn't do HD video I guess there is a place in Mr. Bunnell's collection (and on his blog) about this one too.
And please, Mr. Bunnell don't forget to introduce yourself in Panasonic section of dpreview too. The world needs anytime another avid photographer from Pentax since it seems to me that all professional managers and marketing people are already in other companies.

Radu

Last edited by RaduA; 01-28-2009 at 05:45 AM. Reason: Removed the quote fron nostatic that I accidentally included in my post.
01-28-2009, 06:18 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
No argument about how *cool and visionary* is Mr. Bunnell won't change the fact that he bought a PANASONIC not a LEICA camera. Meaning a camera from an extremely dangerous competitor which incidentally just launched the other day a new rugged, waterproof compact camera that seems at least as advanced as our W60: Panasonic unveils DMC-TS1 rugged compact camera: Digital Photography Review. Since W60 doesn't do HD video I guess there is a place in Mr. Bunnell's collection (and on his blog) about this one too.
I often see Nikon or Canon users on forums just assume that their system is the best at some given feature, simply because they've never really looked at the competition. It's a good sign that someone high-up in Pentax is avoiding that trap. Now, maybe he could have phrased things better in his initial post, but it's a very good thing in general that he's so aware of the shortcomings of his own company's lineups and of the strengths of the competition.

So yeah, I hope he does buy a DMC-TS1, and I hope he does blog about it. I'd like to see him blogging about full-frame cameras from Canon and Nikon. I'd love to see him blogging about Sony's closely-competing image-stabilized bodies, and about ultra-compact dSLRS (with pancake lenses, no less!) from Olympus. And I'd love to see him blogging about Nikon's Creative Lighting System.

The reality is that Pentax is very weak in the area this camera covers, and everyone knows it. Pretending otherwise in the name of some rah-rah brand patriotism would certainly be the more obvious and conventional approach, but does it really help to do that?
01-28-2009, 06:33 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by noblepa Quote
Actually, Edsel Ford bought one of the first MG sports cars. It is believed by many that his was the first one brought into the US. He did buy it in England and imported it himself. At the time (the thirties), the MG was not sold in the US.

And, I believe that Ed Cole, the father of the Corvette, owned a couple of British and German sports cars in the early fifties, which led him to decide that Chevrolet needed something to compete with them.

So, Ned Bunnell bought a Leica. While some may think this is crazy, I really don't think that Pentax competes in that particular niche. I seriously doubt that anyone narrows down his/her camera choice to a K20D or a Leica DigiLux (or any model). Anyone who wants a Leica isn't even going to consider a Pentax.

Paul Noble

Let me explain it this way: I worked for GM for nearly 40 years. During that time, I never thought of buying a competitor's vehicle. The reason is quite simple, since GM paid my wages, I buy their products. Even now in retirement, I am still brand loyal because a percentage of my purchase helps fund my pension. In my mind, buying, supporting or endorsing a competitor's product is biting the hand that feeds you. It's something called 'Loyalty', a trait that seems to be a missing commodity today.

BTW: Neither Edsel nor Cole went around 'bragging' about their ownership in any type of public forum, and in each case, an argument can be cited for product development. All the autos buy their competitor's products for evaluation purposes, but you don't see them printing material stating how great they are.
01-28-2009, 07:09 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
I often see Nikon or Canon users on forums just assume that their system is the best at some given feature, simply because they've never really looked at the competition. It's a good sign that someone high-up in Pentax is avoiding that trap. Now, maybe he could have phrased things better in his initial post, but it's a very good thing in general that he's so aware of the shortcomings of his own company's lineups and of the strengths of the competition.

So yeah, I hope he does buy a DMC-TS1, and I hope he does blog about it. I'd like to see him blogging about full-frame cameras from Canon and Nikon. I'd love to see him blogging about Sony's closely-competing image-stabilized bodies, and about ultra-compact dSLRS (with pancake lenses, no less!) from Olympus. And I'd love to see him blogging about Nikon's Creative Lighting System.

The reality is that Pentax is very weak in the area this camera covers, and everyone knows it. Pretending otherwise in the name of some rah-rah brand patriotism would certainly be the more obvious and conventional approach, but does it really help to do that?
With all due respect Matt, I said this a thousend times: I have nothing against buying stuff from other brands if one feels it suit him/her better. But not for Pentax employees in such a high possitions, really it's plain stupid to do so IMHO especially in this economic recession.

1) He could use P70 as a pocket camera and maybe sold some hundreds of it by endorsing it on his blog. Instead he endorsed LX3 as a pocketable camera;
2) Imagine I recommend in good faith to a friend to buy a Pentax digicamera instead of a Pana model. He becomes a Pentaxian then joins this forum and finds out that President of Pentax USA thinks better about a Pana model than he thinks about what I recommended to him. How can I explain? Maybe you got an answer I am afraid I don't;
3) If Pentax is weak in that segment I expect more from a man in his possition than a chart on his blog, I expect him to fight for such a model in the Pentax' board. If they can't do it maybe he could at least choose a Samsung model and noone I think would said anything

Radu

01-28-2009, 07:21 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
Let me explain it this way: I worked for GM for nearly 40 years. During that time, I never thought of buying a competitor's vehicle. The reason is quite simple, since GM paid my wages, I buy their products. Even now in retirement, I am still brand loyal because a percentage of my purchase helps fund my pension. In my mind, buying, supporting or endorsing a competitor's product is biting the hand that feeds you. It's something called 'Loyalty', a trait that seems to be a missing commodity today.

BTW: Neither Edsel nor Cole went around 'bragging' about their ownership in any type of public forum, and in each case, an argument can be cited for product development. All the autos buy their competitor's products for evaluation purposes, but you don't see them printing material stating how great they are.
Tom back here I had a friend at Renault Romania. All the cars in the compay's parking lot were made by a member of Renault group (Renault, Nissan, Dacia) no matter if they were issued by the company or private cars. When a new guy was hirred he showed up with a BMW and after couple of days he was told that he cannot park anymore in the companies spaces. Pretty simple ... he wasn't told to sell his car or buy Renault just couldn't advertise his BMW on Renault property (from whom he got his paycheck). Some of you may say it's a violation of human rights and stuff I say it more simply: you don't bite the hand that feeds you, you can always find another master or better yet feed yourself!

@ NewRsoul:

Radu
01-28-2009, 09:25 AM   #40
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This entire conversation/uproar reminds me of people who are rabid supporters of their sports team. They often (probably always) live and die with their team's wins and losses much more so than the actual athletes on the team do. In the big scheme of things, this probably isn't a very big deal. I doubt Pentax execs hate Canon or Nikon or other competing brands. In fact, they probably see each other at trade shows and industry gatherings often and possibly know each other well. I'm guessing many have worked for other brands at one time, have friends in other brands, and see it all as business, not some rivalry. Just the way I see it. Personally, I find the ongoing level of concern over Pentax's business decisions hilarious. Product speculation is fun, but to worry about quarterly sales numbers, merger ramifications, market share, etc...what a waste of time.
01-28-2009, 10:30 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
With all due respect Matt, I said this a thousend times: I have nothing against buying stuff from other brands if one feels it suit him/her better. But not for Pentax employees in such a high possitions, really it's plain stupid to do so IMHO especially in this economic recession.

1) He could use P70 as a pocket camera and maybe sold some hundreds of it by endorsing it on his blog. Instead he endorsed LX3 as a pocketable camera;
2) Imagine I recommend in good faith to a friend to buy a Pentax digicamera instead of a Pana model. He becomes a Pentaxian then joins this forum and finds out that President of Pentax USA thinks better about a Pana model than he thinks about what I recommended to him. How can I explain? Maybe you got an answer I am afraid I don't;
3) If Pentax is weak in that segment I expect more from a man in his possition than a chart on his blog, I expect him to fight for such a model in the Pentax' board. If they can't do it maybe he could at least choose a Samsung model and noone I think would said anything

Radu
Another great post...Agreed!
01-28-2009, 10:36 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
Let me explain it this way: I worked for GM for nearly 40 years. During that time, I never thought of buying a competitor's vehicle. The reason is quite simple, since GM paid my wages, I buy their products. Even now in retirement, I am still brand loyal because a percentage of my purchase helps fund my pension. In my mind, buying, supporting or endorsing a competitor's product is biting the hand that feeds you. It's something called 'Loyalty', a trait that seems to be a missing commodity today.

BTW: Neither Edsel nor Cole went around 'bragging' about their ownership in any type of public forum, and in each case, an argument can be cited for product development. All the autos buy their competitor's products for evaluation purposes, but you don't see them printing material stating how great they are.
Agreed! It Amazes me that people ''here'' are trying to justify neds actions by assuming he was testing out the competition when he was not. If he was, he would have said so in his first blog and then I would have been on the ''it's great side'' but clearly he was not..... He bought what he felt was the best p&s and did not care if he stabbed his company in the back. That is the cold hard facts based on what he wrote!.
01-28-2009, 10:41 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Tom back here I had a friend at Renault Romania. All the cars in the compay's parking lot were made by a member of Renault group (Renault, Nissan, Dacia) no matter if they were issued by the company or private cars. When a new guy was hirred he showed up with a BMW and after couple of days he was told that he cannot park anymore in the companies spaces. Pretty simple ... he wasn't told to sell his car or buy Renault just couldn't advertise his BMW on Renault property (from whom he got his paycheck). Some of you may say it's a violation of human rights and stuff I say it more simply: you don't bite the hand that feeds you, you can always find another master or better yet feed yourself!

@ NewRsoul:

Radu
Gosh, I feel bad for not writing my own comments as you are doing well at expressing my feelings in this matter. To take it one step further, F1 drivers are fanatics over there sports cars. Example Michael Schumacher who drove for Ferrari, also owned BMW's and MClaren super cars, yet he parked them because he was a Ferrari driver. Will you see Dale Jr Driving a Ford? Will you see Jack Rouse driving a Toyota?

Ned needs to be held at a higher standard. He is the PRESIDENT OF PENTAX IMAGING FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
01-28-2009, 11:46 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote

Ned needs to be held at a higher standard. He is the PRESIDENT OF PENTAX IMAGING FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
I don't think dumbing down in the name of 'brand loyalty' necessarily helps the Pentax brand. Heck, most Pentax shooters here *make fun* of the Nikon and EOS shooters for seeming to base their decisions on some manner of fervent, almost evangelical, brand loyalty.

I mean, how many Pentax shooters here have or would like an LX-3 or the Leica version? For darn good reasons which don't encompass those cute, but teeny and consumer-oriented Pentax compacts? (I, for one, have had an older Lumix bridge camera for years, and what's more, I like it a lot, the little guy's the household P&S now. ) Personally, I'd rather have the marketing rep for my DSLRs share my (eminently-sensible, of course) tastes and preferences, rather than running around and dumbing down as if in denial of the fact there's more to life than a brand name.

The competetiveness is a bit silly, I think. The car metaphors are kind of apt, actually, cause it seems like 'Canon's going over here with this video thing! You're behind! Pass them!' (...But... I don't want to *go* that way,) "Oh, no, Micro Four Thirds! Pass them! Or we're doomed!'' (...But... I don't want to go that way...)

Hey, you know, I think it's more in-touch with a lot of the people Pentax appeals to... than is any flag-waving sense of 'corporate loyalty.' I don't *want* to buy cameras from someone who says, 'If you don't like what we say you want, for how much we say you should pay, you're a 'traitor.'

Why should some marketing guy be any different. That's not a 'higher standard,' that's just the same kind of corporate myopia that's messed up the world economy in the first place.

Point and shoots aren't interfaced with my SLR systems in *any way.* Who cares what brand bigger-sensor point and shoot the guy uses. It's not his job to sell Pentaxes which don't exist. I'd really rather see the company represented by someone who's in touch with reality.
01-28-2009, 01:20 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
I don't think dumbing down in the name of 'brand loyalty' necessarily helps the Pentax brand. Heck, most Pentax shooters here *make fun* of the Nikon and EOS shooters for seeming to base their decisions on some manner of fervent, almost evangelical, brand loyalty.
I love Pentax as much as the next guy and I also have a few Fuji point and shoots as well as the G9 and G10, ''BUT'' I am not the president of Pentax Imaging.

QuoteQuote:
I mean, how many Pentax shooters here have or would like an LX-3 or the Leica version?
I know a few that do. Nothing wrong with that.

QuoteQuote:
For darn good reasons which don't encompass those cute, but teeny and consumer-oriented Pentax compacts? (I, for one, have had an older Lumix bridge camera for years, and what's more, I like it a lot, the little guy's the household P&S now. )
Great.

QuoteQuote:
Personally, I'd rather have the marketing rep for my DSLRs share my (eminently-sensible, of course) tastes and preferences, rather than running around and dumbing down as if in denial of the fact there's more to life than a brand name.
I am not sure what your getting at here.
QuoteQuote:
The competetiveness is a bit silly, I think. The car metaphors are kind of apt, actually, cause it seems like 'Canon's going over here with this video thing! You're behind! Pass them!' (...But... I don't want to *go* that way,) "Oh, no, Micro Four Thirds! Pass them! Or we're doomed!'' (...But... I don't want to go that way...)
Silly to some and not to others.

QuoteQuote:
Hey, you know, I think it's more in-touch with a lot of the people Pentax appeals to... than is any flag-waving sense of 'corporate loyalty.' I don't *want* to buy cameras from someone who says, 'If you don't like what we say you want, for how much we say you should pay, you're a 'traitor.'
You are clearly missing the point.

QuoteQuote:
Why should some marketing guy be any different. That's not a 'higher standard,' that's just the same kind of corporate myopia that's messed up the world economy in the first place.
First, we are not talking about ''some marketing guy'' but the President of Pentax.
QuoteQuote:
Point and shoots aren't interfaced with my SLR systems in *any way.* Who cares what brand bigger-sensor point and shoot the guy uses. It's not his job to sell Pentaxes which don't exist. I'd really rather see the company represented by someone who's in touch with reality.
Have you read the threads? I could care less what Ned uses, but why blog and praise this Panasonic on ''HIS'', the ''PRESIDENT'' of Pentax imaging website? ''ESPECIALLY'' when Pentax just came out with Two new models? Incase you did not know this, Panasonic also came out with a slew of new models of which they compete directly with Pentax.... Digital Camera Reviews and News: Digital Photography Review: Forums, Glossary, FAQ Even if this Leisonic does not have a pentax counterpart, people will assume that if the ''PRESIDENT'' of Pentax uses a Leiasonic, then they are better than Pentax.

If I where in charge of Panasonic marketing, I would direct people over to neds site.
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