Rumour: K3D, 22 Mp, square sensor

**Ash** · 02-14-2009, 10:52 PM

Interesting, this creative juice flowing here...
Just as keen y'all are as the dpreview bunch:
3 new Pentax DSLR in 2009 ! [Page 1]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

and this open-ended rumour:
Image-Acquire.com - New Pentax DSLR Coming Up?

gets more detailed here:
Wild rumor: Pentax K3D with a 22mp Square Sensor DSLR - 1001 Noisy Cameras and Rumor from China: Pentax K30D with a 14mp APS-H sensor (and K300D w/CMOS) - 1001 Noisy Cameras

I suppose everyone already knows about this fellow:
22MP DFX body: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

I guess in a couple of weeks we'll know one way or another...
Bring on PMA 2009!

creampuff · 02-14-2009, 10:55 PM

Why do people keep churning out such illogical and absurd threads which have not a single shred of factual nor believable basis?

Simply pure BS fantasy for the most part, just like the square sensor argument. Heck Hasselblad which used to champion the square format on film, with it's digital models uses a digital sensor which isn't square. That should tell you something...

KungPOW · 02-15-2009, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by *isteve

Its BS, just like 1.3 crop rumours.

For one thing it would be narrower and deeper (if it was intended to fit in the same APSC image circle) so your wide angle lenses would not be so wide any more (it would be closer to 1.7X crop).

For another, I really dont fancy cropping every image I make when they already fit near perfectly on A4 and A3 sized paper. Rather than crop a square image to 3:2, I would be actually be easier to crop a 3:2 image to square.

Then you have all the folks who want 16:9 format!

The only reason it was used on large format cameras is that most of them could not be used in portrait mode because they were too blinking heavy.

Yes if the square sensor was designed to fit into the APS-C image circle, you would lose image width with a square sensor.

But if the sensor was 23.5X23.5, then there would be no change to how the DA lenses would function if the sensor was digitally cropped to act like an APS-C sensor. If the camera was switched to portrait or landscape, the 1.5 crop factor would still apply.

If the camera was used in full square mode, then it would have a crop factor of 1.3 (43mm FF image circle / 33mm DFX image circle)

Maybe this is where the APS-H rumor came from. Both a square sensor and the APS-H sensor have a 1.3 crop factor.

It would be a unique move for Pentax. Certainly define them in the APS-C market. It would also require a new mirror box, that would be a step toward a FF mirror box.

Personally, I would rather see an APS-H sensor used. I like the 3:2 ratio better then the 1:1.

Even if it is a BS rumor, I still think it is an interesting idea. Although, in a way it smells a little like the PZ-1P, and its panorama mode.

ogl · 02-15-2009, 01:54 AM

The same information was on Olympus forums.
Olympus won't make FF camera and invest money in new FF lenses and cameras.
There was idea that Olympus could put 18*18 mm sensor in new top camera too.

The rumor about APS-H sensor from Pentax is old rumor. I heard it before K20D.

Such leak (K3D 22 MP) could be checking of Pentax of pentaxians's reaction and photo market if they launch such camera now or not...

StephenG · 02-15-2009, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by ogl

Such leak (K3D 22 MP) could be checking of Pentax of pentaxians's reaction and photo market if they launch such camera now or not...

well if Pentax are checking user reaction...

I WANT A FULL FRAME NOW !!

i hope they heard me.

i got cash burning a hole in my pocket waiting for the pentax upgrade.. and its getting harder to keep saying no to the canon 5D that keeps getting offered to me.

ogl · 02-15-2009, 02:39 AM

The problem is Pentax has no FF line of lenses.
To make FF camera witout new line of FF lenses are very risky.
And it demands big investment.

Pentax needs at least 5 FF ring-SDM zooms and at least 10 new SDM FF fixed-lenses.

ogl · 02-15-2009, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by StephenG

well if Pentax are checking user reaction...

I WANT A FULL FRAME NOW !!

i hope they heard me.

i got cash burning a hole in my pocket waiting for the pentax upgrade.. and its getting harder to keep saying no to the canon 5D that keeps getting offered to me.

it's easy - buy 5D or D700 or A900.

Fototim · 02-15-2009, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by cheesehead

The rumor is probably BS, but it's possible...

It is posible, but it would lead to vigneting on some of the DA lenses.
Just draw it up, and make the image circle, and you will see what I mean.

Welcome BTW

ogl · 02-15-2009, 05:02 AM

Pentax has no full FF lens line - 14, 20, 24, 28, 50/1.7, 135, 400.
10-20, 24-70, 70-200, 100-400 etc.

APS-C way of Pentax is close to the limit, need to offer new crop-factor or temporary format before FF.
The serious company can't offer FF camera without NEW FF lenses.

Caat · 02-15-2009, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Fototim

It is posible, but it would lead to vigneting on some of the DA lenses.
Just draw it up, and make the image circle, and you will see what I mean.

Welcome BTW

Pentax could implement selectable auto-vignetting correction for those DA lenses which are affected.

lendur2 · 02-15-2009, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by PentHassyKon

I've always enjoyed the hassy's square format. It's quite liberating to be able to just focus on composition w/o having to decide horizontal or vertical.

I think this would be a great "gimmick" - being able to use the same DA lenses and achieving higher pixel count w/o actually going full frame.

The square format does have it's constraints, considering most, if not all media is not square format.

If I read and remembered correctly, the new Panasonic EVF camera has a square sensor with an adjustment to switch it between a number of aspect ratios from square to 16:9; and the rectangular ones it can rotate by itself so you don't have to play "one-wing" to shoot in portrait mode.

I didn't read into the article so I can't say more.

Leonard Durrenberger

cheesehead · 02-15-2009, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Fototim

It is posible, but it would lead to vigneting on some of the DA lenses.
Just draw it up, and make the image circle, and you will see what I mean.

Welcome BTW

Thanks for the welcome!

If I'm not shooting for square format, there's no vignetting (at least, no more than the lens would give on a std. APS-C sensor). It's still putting a 16mm x 23mm rectangle into a 14.2mm radius circle, it's just whether you put the rectangle in horizontally or vertically.

If I'm shooting for square format, the minimum image circle would be 16.7mm radius, as opposed to 14.2mm for rectangular APS-C or 21mm for FF.

Whether a DA lens would "work" for square format depends upon what Pentax's lens design specifications are/were. Do they have an extra mm radius? 3mm? Did they tell their engineers to design for APS-H but really had square in mind (to keep the idea under wraps)? APS-H minimum image circle needs to be 17.2mm. Could this be the source of the APS-H rumors?? Could the lens delays be due to design tweaking for "APS-H" (really square APS-C)?

I dunno. I'm just a guy who's got a bunch of old manual lenses, a K1000 & a K100D, who's had a Pentax camera since 1978 and has worked with optics from time to time. I've got NO special information and really dislike rumors. But this rumor is so good, and so consistent, that it could be. And I'd like to see it. Heck, I'd like to buy it.

But still likely BS.

SteveM · 02-15-2009, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by ogl

The problem is Pentax has no FF line of lenses.
To make FF camera witout new line of FF lenses are very risky.
And it demands big investment.

Pentax needs at least 5 FF ring-SDM zooms and at least 10 new SDM FF fixed-lenses.

The DA 70mm f/2.4 Limited, DA 40mm f/2.8 Limited, DA*200mm f/2.8, DA*300mm f/4.0 and DA 35mm f/2.8 Macro are full-frame lenses. However, some of the other DA lenses (mostly the shorter focal lengths) are known to produce image circles that are too small to be used with full-frame cameras.

Pentax Lens/Camera Compatibility - Mark Roberts Photography

falconeye · 02-15-2009, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by smc

The DA [...] are full-frame lenses.
Pentax Lens/Camera Compatibility - Mark Roberts Photography

This is inaccurate information. Our forum has a much more reliable source of information, found here:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/31629-da-lens-...ts-thread.html

SteveM · 02-15-2009, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

This is inaccurate information. Our forum has a much more reliable source of information, found here:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/31629-da-lens-...ts-thread.html

Great post!....

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02-14-2009, 10:52 PM	#16
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Interesting, this creative juice flowing here... Just as keen y'all are as the dpreview bunch: 3 new Pentax DSLR in 2009 ! [Page 1]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review and this open-ended rumour: Image-Acquire.com - New Pentax DSLR Coming Up? gets more detailed here: Wild rumor: Pentax K3D with a 22mp Square Sensor DSLR - 1001 Noisy Cameras and Rumor from China: Pentax K30D with a 14mp APS-H sensor (and K300D w/CMOS) - 1001 Noisy Cameras I suppose everyone already knows about this fellow: 22MP DFX body: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review I guess in a couple of weeks we'll know one way or another... Bring on PMA 2009!

02-14-2009, 10:55 PM	#17
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Why do people keep churning out such illogical and absurd threads which have not a single shred of factual nor believable basis? Simply pure BS fantasy for the most part, just like the square sensor argument. Heck Hasselblad which used to champion the square format on film, with it's digital models uses a digital sensor which isn't square. That should tell you something...

02-15-2009, 12:24 AM	#18
KungPOW Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,699	Originally posted by *isteve Its BS, just like 1.3 crop rumours. For one thing it would be narrower and deeper (if it was intended to fit in the same APSC image circle) so your wide angle lenses would not be so wide any more (it would be closer to 1.7X crop). For another, I really dont fancy cropping every image I make when they already fit near perfectly on A4 and A3 sized paper. Rather than crop a square image to 3:2, I would be actually be easier to crop a 3:2 image to square. Then you have all the folks who want 16:9 format! The only reason it was used on large format cameras is that most of them could not be used in portrait mode because they were too blinking heavy. Yes if the square sensor was designed to fit into the APS-C image circle, you would lose image width with a square sensor. But if the sensor was 23.5X23.5, then there would be no change to how the DA lenses would function if the sensor was digitally cropped to act like an APS-C sensor. If the camera was switched to portrait or landscape, the 1.5 crop factor would still apply. If the camera was used in full square mode, then it would have a crop factor of 1.3 (43mm FF image circle / 33mm DFX image circle) Maybe this is where the APS-H rumor came from. Both a square sensor and the APS-H sensor have a 1.3 crop factor. It would be a unique move for Pentax. Certainly define them in the APS-C market. It would also require a new mirror box, that would be a step toward a FF mirror box. Personally, I would rather see an APS-H sensor used. I like the 3:2 ratio better then the 1:1. Even if it is a BS rumor, I still think it is an interesting idea. Although, in a way it smells a little like the PZ-1P, and its panorama mode.

02-15-2009, 01:54 AM	#19
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	The same information was on Olympus forums. Olympus won't make FF camera and invest money in new FF lenses and cameras. There was idea that Olympus could put 18*18 mm sensor in new top camera too. The rumor about APS-H sensor from Pentax is old rumor. I heard it before K20D. Such leak (K3D 22 MP) could be checking of Pentax of pentaxians's reaction and photo market if they launch such camera now or not...

02-15-2009, 02:31 AM	#20
StephenG Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Photos: Gallery Posts: 107	Originally posted by ogl Such leak (K3D 22 MP) could be checking of Pentax of pentaxians's reaction and photo market if they launch such camera now or not... well if Pentax are checking user reaction... I WANT A FULL FRAME NOW !! i hope they heard me. i got cash burning a hole in my pocket waiting for the pentax upgrade.. and its getting harder to keep saying no to the canon 5D that keeps getting offered to me.

02-15-2009, 02:39 AM	#21
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	The problem is Pentax has no FF line of lenses. To make FF camera witout new line of FF lenses are very risky. And it demands big investment. Pentax needs at least 5 FF ring-SDM zooms and at least 10 new SDM FF fixed-lenses.

02-15-2009, 02:39 AM	#22
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by StephenG well if Pentax are checking user reaction... I WANT A FULL FRAME NOW !! i hope they heard me. i got cash burning a hole in my pocket waiting for the pentax upgrade.. and its getting harder to keep saying no to the canon 5D that keeps getting offered to me. it's easy - buy 5D or D700 or A900.

02-15-2009, 03:57 AM	#23
Fototim Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 268	Originally posted by cheesehead The rumor is probably BS, but it's possible... It is posible, but it would lead to vigneting on some of the DA lenses. Just draw it up, and make the image circle, and you will see what I mean. Welcome BTW

02-15-2009, 05:02 AM	#24
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Pentax has no full FF lens line - 14, 20, 24, 28, 50/1.7, 135, 400. 10-20, 24-70, 70-200, 100-400 etc. APS-C way of Pentax is close to the limit, need to offer new crop-factor or temporary format before FF. The serious company can't offer FF camera without NEW FF lenses.

02-15-2009, 07:23 AM	#25
Caat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United Kingdom Photos: Albums Posts: 927	Originally posted by Fototim It is posible, but it would lead to vigneting on some of the DA lenses. Just draw it up, and make the image circle, and you will see what I mean. Welcome BTW Pentax could implement selectable auto-vignetting correction for those DA lenses which are affected.

02-15-2009, 08:36 AM	#26
lendur2 Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 12	Originally posted by PentHassyKon I've always enjoyed the hassy's square format. It's quite liberating to be able to just focus on composition w/o having to decide horizontal or vertical. I think this would be a great "gimmick" - being able to use the same DA lenses and achieving higher pixel count w/o actually going full frame. The square format does have it's constraints, considering most, if not all media is not square format. If I read and remembered correctly, the new Panasonic EVF camera has a square sensor with an adjustment to switch it between a number of aspect ratios from square to 16:9; and the rectangular ones it can rotate by itself so you don't have to play "one-wing" to shoot in portrait mode. I didn't read into the article so I can't say more. Leonard Durrenberger

02-15-2009, 08:50 AM	#27
cheesehead Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 26	Originally posted by Fototim It is posible, but it would lead to vigneting on some of the DA lenses. Just draw it up, and make the image circle, and you will see what I mean. Welcome BTW Thanks for the welcome! If I'm not shooting for square format, there's no vignetting (at least, no more than the lens would give on a std. APS-C sensor). It's still putting a 16mm x 23mm rectangle into a 14.2mm radius circle, it's just whether you put the rectangle in horizontally or vertically. If I'm shooting for square format, the minimum image circle would be 16.7mm radius, as opposed to 14.2mm for rectangular APS-C or 21mm for FF. Whether a DA lens would "work" for square format depends upon what Pentax's lens design specifications are/were. Do they have an extra mm radius? 3mm? Did they tell their engineers to design for APS-H but really had square in mind (to keep the idea under wraps)? APS-H minimum image circle needs to be 17.2mm. Could this be the source of the APS-H rumors?? Could the lens delays be due to design tweaking for "APS-H" (really square APS-C)? I dunno. I'm just a guy who's got a bunch of old manual lenses, a K1000 & a K100D, who's had a Pentax camera since 1978 and has worked with optics from time to time. I've got NO special information and really dislike rumors. But this rumor is so good, and so consistent, that it could be. And I'd like to see it. Heck, I'd like to buy it. But still likely BS.

02-15-2009, 09:00 AM	#28
SteveM Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,294	Originally posted by ogl The problem is Pentax has no FF line of lenses. To make FF camera witout new line of FF lenses are very risky. And it demands big investment. Pentax needs at least 5 FF ring-SDM zooms and at least 10 new SDM FF fixed-lenses. The DA 70mm f/2.4 Limited, DA 40mm f/2.8 Limited, DA200mm f/2.8, DA300mm f/4.0 and DA 35mm f/2.8 Macro are full-frame lenses. However, some of the other DA lenses (mostly the shorter focal lengths) are known to produce image circles that are too small to be used with full-frame cameras. Pentax Lens/Camera Compatibility - Mark Roberts Photography

02-15-2009, 09:21 AM	#29
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by smc The DA [...] are full-frame lenses. Pentax Lens/Camera Compatibility - Mark Roberts Photography This is inaccurate information. Our forum has a much more reliable source of information, found here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/31629-da-lens-...ts-thread.html

02-15-2009, 10:10 AM	#30
SteveM Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,294	Originally posted by falconeye This is inaccurate information. Our forum has a much more reliable source of information, found here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/31629-da-lens-...ts-thread.html Great post!....